Drivetrain Direct Air Scoop for the Intake
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6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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Originally Posted by MSFITOY
Yes...That's exactly the reason I'm cutting two huge holes into my hood and hence, "Project M7 Louver" thread
Using the cowl as an extraction point is not as effective due to the proximity to high pressure just above it higher up on the windshield and the route is quite ciruitous...also requires cutting/removing much of the plastic underhood shrouds...
When I say the cowl area is "low pressure"...that is relative...it is more like neutral stagnant...on the other hand, the area above the hood surface is relatively flat and more likely to have a high flow boundary layer to take advantage of the reverse louvers to extract hot air directly behind the DFIC...
Using the cowl as an extraction point is not as effective due to the proximity to high pressure just above it higher up on the windshield and the route is quite ciruitous...also requires cutting/removing much of the plastic underhood shrouds...When I say the cowl area is "low pressure"...that is relative...it is more like neutral stagnant...on the other hand, the area above the hood surface is relatively flat and more likely to have a high flow boundary layer to take advantage of the reverse louvers to extract hot air directly behind the DFIC...
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Forked River, NJ
I like the shaker idea. I have already started to fab the main box. I will use the k&n cone filter that came with the typhoon intake. But will remove the screen in my hood opening and fab a low profile snorkel so to speak. It will be part of the air box, not the hood. So when the hood is open the scoop is still on the box. Using the existing idea of the cover for the HDI, you can still access the filter element.
I may also use my factory panel filter and make a more "low profile" intake using the hole in my hood. This will allow for a shorter path to the TB. It just wont be as healthy to use in the rain since, oh cancel that I have another idea. I gotta go!!!!!!!!!
I may also use my factory panel filter and make a more "low profile" intake using the hole in my hood. This will allow for a shorter path to the TB. It just wont be as healthy to use in the rain since, oh cancel that I have another idea. I gotta go!!!!!!!!!
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Will @ M7 Tuning
Where did you measure at?
1. Pickup in the cowl, tube pointing towards the filter
2. Pickup in the cowl, tube pointing up in the cowl screen. Old style screen with the foam removed
3. Pickup in the cowl sealed off with a plastic bag. It was a pain but isolated just the cowl area.
4. Alta box all sealed off with, yes, plastic.
5. Pickup inside the filter
6. Pickup inside the intake tube just above the TB.
7. Pickup down inside the inlet tube that leads from the front grill.
Originally Posted by lambspeed
I may also use my factory panel filter and make a more "low profile" intake using the hole in my hood. This will allow for a shorter path to the TB.
As he mentioned above, I believe keeping the intake path to the throttle body as short and direct as possible will yield the best result.
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 306
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From: Richmond, VA
Originally Posted by obehave
Well, I measured with the Alta intake installed;
1. Pickup in the cowl, tube pointing towards the filter
2. Pickup in the cowl, tube pointing up in the cowl screen. Old style screen with the foam removed
3. Pickup in the cowl sealed off with a plastic bag. It was a pain but isolated just the cowl area.
4. Alta box all sealed off with, yes, plastic.
5. Pickup inside the filter
6. Pickup inside the intake tube just above the TB.
7. Pickup down inside the inlet tube that leads from the front grill.
1. Pickup in the cowl, tube pointing towards the filter
2. Pickup in the cowl, tube pointing up in the cowl screen. Old style screen with the foam removed
3. Pickup in the cowl sealed off with a plastic bag. It was a pain but isolated just the cowl area.
4. Alta box all sealed off with, yes, plastic.
5. Pickup inside the filter
6. Pickup inside the intake tube just above the TB.
7. Pickup down inside the inlet tube that leads from the front grill.
Last edited by Peter@M7Tuning; Jul 24, 2006 at 06:43 PM.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Forked River, NJ
I am trying to find a cheap way to may a venturi. With the flat panel filter I want to use a short section of 2.75 in tubing with a venturi at the end facing straight up. Making a tray of sorts. Maybe move the panel filter further back as to not be in the direct path of the incoming rain at a standstill. I think under motion, rain is not a issue. I will also take some pics of a idea for the factory opening in the rad support. It will require cutting the hood but msfitoy feels above the grille is better than at the cowl. Only problem alot of supports to get through under the hood. If all of this gets figured out, a new glass or carbon hood may be made, including the airbox. Cervinis makes something like what we are trying for the mustang and F150 so its not such a pipedream.
Think short intake path. The AGS would work with this project also.
on another topic. I have an idea for a combo air/air air/water setup. Making up a new post inter cooler tube to intake manifold. Their is enough room for a 4-6 inch water to air intercooler combined with the factory intercooler. Also if a new post intercooler tube can be made, a intercooler as wide as the scoop opening can be made with a better transition to the intake manifold. I think its all in people being able to invest in a new hood that adopts all of these new ideas. I hate it when the lager starts talking!!
Think short intake path. The AGS would work with this project also.
on another topic. I have an idea for a combo air/air air/water setup. Making up a new post inter cooler tube to intake manifold. Their is enough room for a 4-6 inch water to air intercooler combined with the factory intercooler. Also if a new post intercooler tube can be made, a intercooler as wide as the scoop opening can be made with a better transition to the intake manifold. I think its all in people being able to invest in a new hood that adopts all of these new ideas. I hate it when the lager starts talking!!
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Forked River, NJ
I have some rough sketches of what I would like to do. I think the AGS would work better with the idea. You would just have to make a tube that would clear the extended intercooler section for an intake. Which is why I am undertaking this whole thing in the first place. I believe both ideas will work. the air/air to water/air and the lengthened intercooler. If you remove all the stock pieces=tons of room! PM me I have to set up my scanner.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Will @ M7 Tuning
Yeah, that's pretty much what I would have suspected. You won't get much cold air at high pressure that far out.
Not much variance.
So placement isn't really much of an issue.
I wish I still had the Magnehelic. This would be what I would do. Fab a scoop and attach it to the hood. Insert the gauge pickup and see what you get and where the best placement would be.
Edit:
Apologies. I just realized I said inches of mercury and I'm sure it was inches of water. Uh... big difference
Looked up my old post and changed the above post to reflect what I had written notes on.
Sorry
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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From: Forked River, NJ
Originally Posted by obehave
What I found is that there is very little variation in pressue no matter where I had the pickup. All within .1" of Mercury or ~.05 psi.
Not much variance.
So placement isn't really much of an issue.
I wish I still had the Magnehelic. This would be what I would do. Fab a scoop and attach it to the hood. Insert the gauge pickup and see what you get and where the best placement would be.
Not much variance.
So placement isn't really much of an issue.
I wish I still had the Magnehelic. This would be what I would do. Fab a scoop and attach it to the hood. Insert the gauge pickup and see what you get and where the best placement would be.
Really. I am in a position to fab just about anything at this point. Cut up my car...no problem!!!!
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 306
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From: Richmond, VA
Originally Posted by obehave
What I found is that there is very little variation in pressue no matter where I had the pickup. All within .1" of Mercury or ~.05 psi.
Not much variance.
So placement isn't really much of an issue.
I wish I still had the Magnehelic. This would be what I would do. Fab a scoop and attach it to the hood. Insert the gauge pickup and see what you get and where the best placement would be.
Not much variance.
So placement isn't really much of an issue.
I wish I still had the Magnehelic. This would be what I would do. Fab a scoop and attach it to the hood. Insert the gauge pickup and see what you get and where the best placement would be.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Will @ M7 Tuning
Yeah, but you were measuring the cowl vent area. Being that they are vents, I would assume neutral or negative pressure, not positive pressure as most CAI's assume. The shape of the windshield pretty much dictates that there won't be a high pressure area where the vents were placed.
This is exactly why I usually ignore posts about this.
I tell people I measured and yet peopl that never measured a dam thing tell me I'm wrong.
It gets very frustrating.
And since people are pointing out"Gee that isn't a new idea threads" check this one out It's TonyB and I discussing this very thing Sept 1st 2003.
Here's a post from last year. I can't seem to find my origianl post but I did find this quote of it...odd
Originally Posted by LombardStreet
snip...
* The CAI designs seem to be assuming the cowl vent is a high pressure zone. (And it would seem logical to assume the stock intake, inside the grille is also a high pressure zone.) But has there been any evidence to show that this is actually the case? Not trying to be argumentative here, just wondering.
* The CAI designs seem to be assuming the cowl vent is a high pressure zone. (And it would seem logical to assume the stock intake, inside the grille is also a high pressure zone.) But has there been any evidence to show that this is actually the case? Not trying to be argumentative here, just wondering.
Originally Posted by obehave
Sorry, realized I had posted this on another forum
Testing done with an Alta intake, lots of tape and plastic sheet(ask Randy) and a Magnehelic gauge. 2 runs each test in 2 diffferent directions and average to minimize any effects of the wind (which was < 10MPH that day)
In a nutshell.
You don't see a pressure differential until 50-55 MPH. It's almost .035 psi at 70MPH.
This was obtained by taking a bag( 2 gal trash bag) and taping it in place where the cowl opening is. Inserted the gauge lead in under the cowl grill and driving.
Remove the bag and just run the lead in and repeat. Readings are slightly lower. Remember this gauge is in .035 psi increments so you have to kind of trust my judgement. (This is THE reason I never really posted this info since I didn't want to take a beating from the **** test monkeys out there. You know who you are
Run this 3 different times with the lead in 3 different places. Results are indistinguishable from each other. One with the lead right next to the filter.
Now the biggie.
I use plastic sheet and a friggin ton of tape to isolate the air box, close to what the OEM air box would be like. Rerun the tests.
Pressures are slightly, approx 1/4 psi, lower than with the open cowl being used.
For me that's all I really needed to see.
Note:
Max reading for the day was right a .06125 psi during an 80mph sprint.
I'm sure there's some cool mathematical ratio to explain the pressure rise. Like this:
45mph nuttin
55mph close to .0175 psi
70mph .04375psi
80mph .06125psi
One thing I didn't test but wanted to that's relative to this thread is; are forward or rear facing scoops better? Just couldn't figure an easy way to make test scoops. As upright as the MINI windshield is, I'm thinking rearward.
Testing done with an Alta intake, lots of tape and plastic sheet(ask Randy) and a Magnehelic gauge. 2 runs each test in 2 diffferent directions and average to minimize any effects of the wind (which was < 10MPH that day)
In a nutshell.
You don't see a pressure differential until 50-55 MPH. It's almost .035 psi at 70MPH.
This was obtained by taking a bag( 2 gal trash bag) and taping it in place where the cowl opening is. Inserted the gauge lead in under the cowl grill and driving.
Remove the bag and just run the lead in and repeat. Readings are slightly lower. Remember this gauge is in .035 psi increments so you have to kind of trust my judgement. (This is THE reason I never really posted this info since I didn't want to take a beating from the **** test monkeys out there. You know who you are
Run this 3 different times with the lead in 3 different places. Results are indistinguishable from each other. One with the lead right next to the filter.
Now the biggie.
I use plastic sheet and a friggin ton of tape to isolate the air box, close to what the OEM air box would be like. Rerun the tests.
Pressures are slightly, approx 1/4 psi, lower than with the open cowl being used.
For me that's all I really needed to see.
Note:
Max reading for the day was right a .06125 psi during an 80mph sprint.
I'm sure there's some cool mathematical ratio to explain the pressure rise. Like this:
45mph nuttin
55mph close to .0175 psi
70mph .04375psi
80mph .06125psi
One thing I didn't test but wanted to that's relative to this thread is; are forward or rear facing scoops better? Just couldn't figure an easy way to make test scoops. As upright as the MINI windshield is, I'm thinking rearward.
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 306
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From: Richmond, VA
Originally Posted by obehave
Geez, I'm telling you ... I measured positive pressure there. I'm not making this up.
This is exactly why I usually ignore posts about this.
I tell people I measured and yet peopl that never measured a dam thing tell me I'm wrong.
It gets very frustrating.
This is exactly why I usually ignore posts about this.
I tell people I measured and yet peopl that never measured a dam thing tell me I'm wrong.
It gets very frustrating.
No reason to go on the defensive about this, and certainly no reason to attack. I make my living making measurements of all sorts of things, so I have a little bit of an idea about how it goes.
I was simply trying to have a discussion here. I hadn't seen your results from 2003, and I'm not trying in any way to discount what you've done. I was asking because I didn't know. I was just trying to help out the thread, but I guess it's just not worth it anymore.
Originally Posted by Will @ M7 Tuning
Yeah, but you were measuring the cowl vent area. Being that they are vents, I would assume neutral or negative pressure, not positive pressure as most CAI's assume. The shape of the windshield pretty much dictates that there won't be a high pressure area where the vents were placed.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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From: Forked River, NJ
only thing that stinks is the exhaust header is just below that. Even if you made an intake at that location, it might get heat soak being over top of the header.
Front mount IC and factory IC scoop for intake. Thats the ticket
unless you made a scoop in the cowl panel (center) and directed it towards the factory airbox location. You can make a scoop forward or rearward and direct air via a tube to a helmholtz style box.
Front mount IC and factory IC scoop for intake. Thats the ticket
unless you made a scoop in the cowl panel (center) and directed it towards the factory airbox location. You can make a scoop forward or rearward and direct air via a tube to a helmholtz style box.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by lambspeed
Obehave, being a blue collar guy, I will fab the scoop and you can measure whatever you need to measure. Really. I am in a position to fab just about anything at this point. Cut up my car...no problem!!!!
Really. I am in a position to fab just about anything at this point. Cut up my car...no problem!!!!
You're just giving me an excuse to buy a Magnehelic
Lets bounce this around a bit but here's my starter design.
It would be simple to make a wire or sheet "A" frame to support the hose for the gauge. Place it in a number of places starting from the front between grill and headlight and move back to the windshield. Height variance between ~0 and 4".
As much as I'd love to get right on this I am going on vacation for a week in a couple days so I can't start on it any time soon.
Patience isn't our virtue around here so someone else feel free to dive in
I'm still buying the gauge though
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Will @ M7 Tuning
Ok, just back off the attack, man. I'm sorry, I see you measured positive pressure. But measuring .06 psi of increase, which seems to be what you've indicated, is pretty close to neutral pressure, and probably within measurement uncertainty. I'm not telling you you are wrong, ok?
No reason to go on the defensive about this, and certainly no reason to attack. I make my living making measurements of all sorts of things, so I have a little bit of an idea about how it goes.
I was simply trying to have a discussion here. I hadn't seen your results from 2003, and I'm not trying in any way to discount what you've done. I was asking because I didn't know. I was just trying to help out the thread, but I guess it's just not worth it anymore.
No reason to go on the defensive about this, and certainly no reason to attack. I make my living making measurements of all sorts of things, so I have a little bit of an idea about how it goes.
I was simply trying to have a discussion here. I hadn't seen your results from 2003, and I'm not trying in any way to discount what you've done. I was asking because I didn't know. I was just trying to help out the thread, but I guess it's just not worth it anymore.
Not an attack at all Will. Just frustrated. Just got ignored on the other thread too so 2 times within 5 minutes can get a bit much.
Believe me I wouldn't have said "Geez" if I was attacking anyone
But you also have to realize I've been saying this for 3 years and it keeps getting ignored because people want to believe differently.
That's why I said I usually don't post because I try to help and then get the usual NAM beating because some local hero says different based on their idea and not the reality.
Frustrated? Yes. Attacking you? Absolutely not.
Sorry if it seemed that way.
I'm so misunderstood
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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From: Forked River, NJ
I was just outside and thought maybe cutting a half moon in the hood to make the driver side xenon washer a full circle and routing a tube to the airbox or a new airbox. I personally have removed all the components for the xenon washer. Just a waste of fluid and weight!!!!!!!
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
From: Forked River, NJ
Originally Posted by obehave
Not an attack at all Will. Just frustrated. Just got ignored on the other thread too so 2 times within 5 minutes can get a bit much.
Believe me I wouldn't have said "Geez" if I was attacking anyone
But you also have to realize I've been saying this for 3 years and it keeps getting ignored because people want to believe differently.
That's why I said I usually don't post because I try to help and then get the usual NAM beating because some local hero says different based on their idea and not the reality.
Frustrated? Yes. Attacking you? Absolutely not.
Sorry if it seemed that way.
I'm so misunderstood
Believe me I wouldn't have said "Geez" if I was attacking anyone
But you also have to realize I've been saying this for 3 years and it keeps getting ignored because people want to believe differently.
That's why I said I usually don't post because I try to help and then get the usual NAM beating because some local hero says different based on their idea and not the reality.
Frustrated? Yes. Attacking you? Absolutely not.
Sorry if it seemed that way.
I'm so misunderstood
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by lambspeed
only thing that stinks is the exhaust header is just below that. Even if you made an intake at that location, it might get heat soak being over top of the header.
Front mount IC and factory IC scoop for intake. Thats the ticket
unless you made a scoop in the cowl panel (center) and directed it towards the factory airbox location. You can make a scoop forward or rearward and direct air via a tube to a helmholtz style box.
Front mount IC and factory IC scoop for intake. Thats the ticket
unless you made a scoop in the cowl panel (center) and directed it towards the factory airbox location. You can make a scoop forward or rearward and direct air via a tube to a helmholtz style box.
Directly over the shield is slightly lower than just off center until you've set idling for more than a couple minutes of been stuck in under 5mph creeping traffic. Under those conditions it's just hot everywhere.
Also looked into running a duct in that center cowl area. It'd be a pain.
This fell out of a bench talk thing about using a fan, something like a bilge pump, in the cowl on the passenger side to pump air into the CAI box when heat in the CAI reached X temp. You could probably squeeze 3" silicone hose into that area but you would lose a lot of flow area because it would be so flat.
Check this old thread
Once you start moving, heat under the hood evacuates very well. I was surprised how well.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by lambspeed
Ignored, I know how you feel. So many ideas get thrown around and then six months later someone makes it seem like they just cured cancer
Or they market it and sell it
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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From: Forked River, NJ
Now we are on to something
I think adding fans and such is too much. KISS (keep it simple stupid) is my motto my creed my creedo. Sorry I could not resist. I dont mind if people steal ideas, as long as I get the parts for free or atleast a reach around.( that was bad)
When EVOVIII's are reaching 800 plus horsepower out of what 2.0 2.3 litres, Something has to change. www.turbotrix.com
I think adding fans and such is too much. KISS (keep it simple stupid) is my motto my creed my creedo. Sorry I could not resist. I dont mind if people steal ideas, as long as I get the parts for free or atleast a reach around.( that was bad)
When EVOVIII's are reaching 800 plus horsepower out of what 2.0 2.3 litres, Something has to change. www.turbotrix.com