I am sorry to hear you are not " buying it " really. It still does not change the fact that the DFIC does not show its strength sitting on a pair of rubber drums . If someone wants to go ahead with it thats fine but we really don't have the time nor interest in doing it . The tests which have already been done by us and will be done in the near future by Dr. O and others are a much more valid test of this type of product.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

M7 should be commended, as obe said earlier, for having someone else evaluate and provide the numbers. A 3rd party is always better, and they recognize that...

One can spend 100 bucks for a dyno to get some whp number, which can be easily influenced and massaged btw, then be done with it, appeasing the clueless who think it's the ultimate, and avoiding true evaluation.

Let others dyno if they so wish, but a vendor should never feel compelled to provide data derived by inappropriate testing methods to validate the worthiness of their products. If others are so inclinded, let them do it...

M7 has explained why the dyno is not the best instrument for this analysis and comparison, and if one understands the dynamics involved, then this explanation will make sense.

A few much more valid testing methods have been mentioned, and should be pursued. In the meantime, with a batch of DFICs about to go out, I eagerly await futher testemonials...

 

Bob we do have hard data and would not have released the product if we had not done so. As for an industry reference point what industry ? Certainly not the intercooler industry. We talked to them about various ways to test this and not once was the word DYNO mentioned. I would think that the members on here would start to see the light as far as dyno numbers are concerned . I mean for example do you really think that a CAI, ECU reprogram and a pulley will give you 215 WHP? Apparently some do as that vendor still has that printed in his catalog. That alone should be proof that dynos can be made to say ANYTHING you want. Sorry about the dyno rant but sometimes I find it quite ludicrous. Like I said feel free to do whatever you want with it . As far as criticism we are big boys and have been on here pretty much since the beginning of time as far as the new mini is concerned. We consider the source , balance it against the facts and move on .

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

I still want to test it...

 

TEST TEST! ...ooooo test!

 

Wow Tuls I am shocked Such a powerful post especially when you are going to be living in our town soon Any more like that and you are off our XMAS card list.
Look if our Intercooler designers think that a dyno is not a fair measurement to test a intercooler who am I to argue. We aren't saying that it can't be done , we just do not see a need to do it ourselves. As I mentioned earlier DYNO's can be made to say anything you want them to as the 215 whp claim shows. If someone doesn't believe in a company why believe in that same companies published material ( dyno charts ) . If someone thinks we are on the write path, use their own thought process and they believe as we do that we are brining the best possible products to the market they do not need to see a sheet of paper to reaffirm their beliefs.Yes a dyno is a good tool but it should not be the end all. Dynos numbers are great for the lazy modder . Just turn off your brain and look for the biggest number . Don't bother to analyze or think something thru. For those that want to buy a product just because there is a pretty 4 color dyno chart to go along with it feel free. As a matter of fact you would probably love the electronic supercharger I saw at vegas last year . VERY impressive chart for that one. Im not sure where the head story fits in here but the white Cosi car at the dragon seemed to have no issues now did it? That was the very fist with that configuration .There was a recent problem with a project which has been solved today as a matter of fact but it was not the head.
For one that has tuned cars as much as you have we really expected more but it is what it is .Really believe in what you need to believe in as will we .

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

"feel ain't real" is an expression, a figure of speech used in some engineering and scientific circles that means a conclusion is not valid without the data. Its meaning is not the literal interpretation of the words, and I think this misunderstanding has fueled some of the debate.

 

well thanks for your humor I appreciate it...


I really just want this to get tested... I offered back in march... lol... so I am awaiting the tests... like all...

I don't know how much longer i am keeping the mini though... I'll still continue to do stuff for them... however, I just test drop a car the other day that has stolen my heart... I posted a pic on the M|U the white R34... sigh... what a lady...

 

We are still planning on getting a DFIC to Dr. O as originally planned in APPROXAMATLEY 2 weeks .So if our suppliers come thru on time we will come thru on time. The head on the white Cosi car was the first +10 technology Cosi head. One of my team members in TWC has a white r-34 on the east coast . Very interesting car, enjoy.

Randy
M7 tuning

P.S is 159 posts and 7 pages in one day a record ? LOL

 

Randy-
As I said before. I really enjoy my M7 parts. I understand the issue with flow dynamics and trying to test an IC on a dyno where you have a fan blowing air at it rather than a real world scenario. I also understand a dyno "can be made to say anything". Whether it be Mustang, Dyno-Dynamics, Dynojet, etc...

What I am looking for is given the same car, same day, same CF same fan position, etc. WHAT DELTA WHP DOES THE DFIC MAKE??

That would be, by your own estimation a poor judgement of the units quality. If is should show 3 whp or 30 whp it would not be up to what you, me, and most people who have a reasonably open mind would consider an "ideal" test. Given that you could reasonably claim it at a minimum made X, Y, or Z whp. What it really makes is probably more. There are cetainly mods out there for our cars that make minimal $$/hp ratios and people still by them. Given this then, even some increase in a less than ideal situation (and given the M7 name) you would continue to sell units.



Now on to Chris' post. I do agree with him that for good or for bad the DYNO is king in the tuner world. Whether that be MINI, Subi, Dub, Lotus, Amer. muscle, Import. Take any brand, and any tuner worth their salt, DYNO is used. It is a sad fact of life in the car tuner world.

Now for M7 to tread the same ground they did with the AGS is dangerous. Many would say Andy was an extremist in regards to his science/data first, sacrifice all to that ideal. Myself and Tuls are not in that group. But to have us, and several others express significant concern that M7 is walking down the same path with this product should not be taken lightly. I am not saying we have any influence on the purchasing choices people on NAM make. I am not so bold. I simply am saying we use your stuff. We like you guys personally. We just can't get our heads (if I can speak for Chris here) around the absolute reluctance of M7 to come up with ANY numbers showing a functional gain (i.e whp) with the DFIC.

Now I'm spent. Any more on this should be "in person" (i.e. phone)

Good luck with the new product. I am sure considering all the hype and preorders it will do very well for you.

 

As for delivery of the DFIC, no worries we have more then 60 units shipped
before the end of the month....

If you have any specific questions regarding the above products feel free to call me any time.

peter
Team M7
562-608-8123

 

I have known M7 to use the dyno, and acutally quite a few times, for products that a dyno is better able to evaluate. Here, given that a hood needs to be closed to judge the merits of air flow in the design, and cope with heat soak build-up, the dyno flat-out sucks as it negates those two huge factors.

M7 did perform testing on this item, and I know first-hand. We were not made privy to the details of the testing of other tuner's products, nor should we expect such from M7. That information had its purpose to refine the product, and it served that end.

M7 has provided this intercooler with bungs, pre and post core, with testing being part of the reason for the inclusion. This is a first, and makes true evaluation much easier, something they found important. Heck, they even provided the equipment for Bob to test this also, as he did, and shared here...

<Secret PM to M7, shared to all>

Guys, get the dyno done, really. I know it's asinine, for reasons we know... I feel that 10-12 whp is the ticket for these bozos. Get that one guy, you know that one operator, he's always very cooperative with changes in technique, including fan orientation . Or, just fudge with the stuff afterwards! Folks want a meaningless number, give them a meaningless number, at least have it serve your interests . Ciao.

==========

Yes, obviously, the above was not sent as a PM, and is a joke. You get the message though...

Time will tell. If the DFIC testemonials blend-in with the blah ones we've seen over the years, then there you go, nothing noteworthy. If however they continue their current favorable trend, this could indeed be something special...

Other ICs state that they produce 10 or even more hp, yet that is something that should be easily perceived, yet is not by so many. The testing that Dr. O and I did revealing molecular density validated the gains to be much less, confirming the lack of "feeling." At least Bob and Sid have felt an immediate difference, and that is something to hold on to...

I expect this thread to continue strong tomorrow, and beyond that. With my few posts here, I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'm done.

 

Ok lets try it this way . An intercooler really doesn't make horsepower as much as it prevents you from losing horsepower. The difference in lost horsepower between different intercoolers stems from the different ways in which they accept the incoming air and what they proceed to do with it once it is accepted. It is hard to show these differences when you are sitting still even with a fan.
It is the real world of stop and go , heat up and cool down driving performance that the difference will be registered. Like I said earlier I already have seen the numbers I was interested in . I am sure that Spider X , Msfitoy and Custom AV have as well and shortly many others .

Randy
m7 Tuning

 

Still want to test it! WOOT! :P

 

Yaaayyyy Test!

 

An few items

1) I asked Peter before we collected the numbers if he wanted me to post regardless of the outcome.... He said, "yes", and then something about nothing to hide and being honest.

2) the unit comes with testing bungs....this is a first that I am aware of and allows anyone quick access to the numbers....to anyone with the test gear

Peter sent me the test equipment and then I passed it on to Waylen (Waymotorworks) who is doing track testing this/next week.... no one has mentioned that yet..... M7 kinows this piece is going to be tested and is encouraging it by providing bungs and even test gear.....for those of you sitting on the fence.....anyone can buy one of these and test it.....with the release of about 60 units in the next few weeks, there will be no shortage of tests done I am sure.....and I am also sure that we will see dyno graphs from someone

3) converting cooling to WHP is another thing all together.... ex. does dropping 60 deg at 65 mph mean that you saved 10 whp? who has done that work? my point is that the intercooler should be measured by what it's function is...cooling..... equating it to WHP saved is a much tougher task....

4) Tuls drove my car at the Dragon and I asked him to to give me an appraisal of its prformance because he has alot of experience with many Minis..... he is very forthcoming with his opinions which is what I wanted.... he was very complimentary of my car .... If the car had issues I'm sure he would have raised some questions.....

 

For all of you who have been vehemently arguing with me about dyno's, thank you Peter. If you do dyno look for an eddy-current style with a proper fan setup and the fan starts at about $5k!

However, years ago at Andial (Porsche USA) they used to test ICs on the dyno. But they knew to do it right you needed wind tunnel like conditions which they had.

I'll test it at the track for free but have yet been taken up on my offer. I'm not talking about going out in DE run sessions. I (and 49 of my friends) have rented out Watkins Glen for 2 days. That is 16 hours of "the track is hot."

 

Eddy-current!

 

I don't think many understood my point as you did. We use the term in video analysis as well.
As I said, all I'm trying to figure out is if I ought to spend $900 or so on an aftermarket IC and my numbers, though not apples to apples, says not yet.

 

Haha, at least not a dynojet...remember the HAI dyno results? Look...

base line run stock intake Max TQ 162 Max HP 158.9
secons run HAI Max TQ 163 Maz HP 170.7

from:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=54015

Those are some really impressive numbers! Of course, then there's the ongoing HAI thread...that shows a LOSS of useable air delivered at the MAP sensor (ie, due to it giving HOTTER air, there is less cold air arriving and a loss of power)?

I'm sure that the unit will be dyno tested. It should be, by anyone who wants to do so. But, let's remember folks... whether it be chaos, wheel slip, or divine intervention, weird things happen on a dyno from time to time. Perhaps this goes both ways (awesome results one day and horrible ones the next), but when you're talking up to an 11.8 whp difference on a dyno one day when the good Dr. sees perhaps even a LOSS OF POWER on the road (I don't about all of you rich folk, but that's where I spend more than 99% of my time! ), that doesn't seem very precise or reliable to me.

I am huge on stats. Stats are 90% of why my field, the medical field, has made the breakthroughs that it has. But, any good data set includes much more than one point. With the included taps for sensors, I think that many many data sets will be available, in addition to dyno numbers.

So, let's just be happy that M7 did a lot of the work for the would-be testers and be nice to each other? Lol, MINI drivers don't FIGHT! We roll. Mad deep.

PS: Tuls, d00d, when I get one (hopefully within the next few months....money...lol!), it's yours to try, deal? . Oh, but you must let me ride in your rocket ship! (I drive a hard bargain! )

 

I respect that....

FWIW... I have a few PMs that suggest that dynos will be done

 

Yea!! More cannon fodder

Cannon fodder is an informal term for military personnel who are regarded or treated as expendable in the face of enemy fire. The term is generally used in situations where soldiers are forced to fight against hopeless odds, such as occurred during trench warfare in World War I. The term may also be used to differentiate infantry from other forces (such as artillery, airforce or the navy), who generally have a much better survival rate.
The term derives from fodder - food for livestock - but in this case soldiers are the metaphorical food sent against cannons. The term may have been introduced during the U.S. Civil War as a result of massed infantry charges against fortified enemy positions.

Disclaimer:

This is an attempt at humor. Any persons real or fictitious who find this less than humorous have the right to; not laugh, grin, post LOL, etc.

 

I want to clear up some misconceptions I think people have of me and of M7 as a whole.

First, I/we are not against dyno's and hard numbers. We are skeptical of dyno's and hard numbers, as I think everyone should be. I think we can all agree that a 15% pully currently has a range of "dyno proven" numbers anywhere between 5 and 25 WHP. Well, the real number cetainly is somewhere in that range, and I think we can all agree on that because the proof is in the charts. Kind of. Variations in dyno's, calibrations, etc. make these numbers hard to nail down. Nature of the beast.

I've personally done a lot of measurements on my car to assess different mods, and been present for a lot of other dyno runs to measure changes. It's good for comparison, but I've also seen a 15 WHP difference on the same dyno with two closely produced cars (one month apart) with the exact same mods on different days. Where do we account for that difference? Who's to say.

M7 has never come out against hard testing and numbers. We test our products in our personal cars and test cars on the dyno, street, and track. We use the in house data to refine our products (AGS is now to V.3 based on testing and development), but we know our numbers are our numbers. We strive to achieve the highest gains possible because we are confident that they will translate well to customer's machines, but we understand that our numbers are relevant to our cars, and we prefer that customers and trusted agents, like Dr. O, perform test for public release data. This removes the perceived M7 bias from the data, or at least comes as close as we can.

We want you to trust us most of all. If we can all agree that you will accept data released by M7 is data valid to the product on the test car, and not going to apply 100% of the time, but will be real, unmolested data, then I'll be more than happy to perform dyno runs on a DFIC. I don't yet have an AGS installed, so I will also be able to make runs with the DFIC/AGS combo. I just need the assurance that the community isn't going to cry foul because a vendor is testing their own products and producing numbers that may not reproduce exactly on their cars. I can assure you that, as a scientist, I'm not going to massage the numbers to make a product appear better than it is. If it turns out that too many people, and I know there are a select few that are going to no matter what, that take issue with the numbers without any scientific reasoning based on that they are M7 numbers, then we'll just continue to keep our testing internal and let our customers and third parties release their findings. We're really not trying to fight the community, on misperception. So can we reach an agreement for now that numbers are on the way, M7 loves numbers very much, and we can all share numbers if we aren't going to remain suspicious of each other? Because that would be super.

Understand also that the DFIC has been in testing since the Dragon on the three cars that had one. We haven't had an in house unit to run with, and the batch that is arriving will provide us with an opportunity for more testing, dyno and otherwise. If all of the incoming batch hasn't sold, I should be able to test on on the dyno and with a Gtech type device for rolling data. Then we can get a real comparison of the difficulty with testing an intercooler on a dyno.

Of course, all of this testing may lead to DFIC V.2, but that's a chance you all are going to have to take.

 

The way this thread is going I am reluctant to post. As you can see by my mods compared to my number of posts, I really don't like to get too involved in these discussions. Too much emotion at times. Anyhow . . .

I'm not just some piker doing mods to my car. I have been involved tuning BMW's since the early 80's in an "amateur" role. I know, from experience that there are times when the dyno is a reliable way to measure changes and other times when the results should be viewed cautiously. As such, I have been diligent to modify the Mini in groups of parts rather than a single part.

For example, I didn't feel there was any reason to put on a bigger throttle body without doing other intake and exhaust mods at the same time. Many people complained that when they put on a larger throttle body, they either couldn't feel the difference, or perceived driveabiility suffered. Well, yea!!!!! There are too many other restirictions that have to be solved in order for the throttle body to maximize it's ability to flow better. It is part of a system and that system includes other intake and exhaust pieces. You can dyno the throttle body and find some small gain(real or manufactured), but to me the results were meaningless. What is not meaningless is the result of changing the whole intake/exhaust system and the dyno proves that.

When I decided to put on a larger intercooler, it was because of my other mods and my butt dyno assessment that the longer I was on the track the slower the car became, because the stock intercooler was no longer able to recover fast enough. IMO, there is no way to capture this on a dyno. I went with the GRS unit (DFIC not available at the time). Same track, similar weather conditions, I can tell I have more power, as I can watch where my revs are at specific points on the track. Can this be captured on the dyno? No. Went and put on an M7 extreme scoop. Same track, similar weather conditions and now I am having to shift sooner in certain sections. Another noticeable gain on top of just the GRS. Can you measure this on the dyno? No.

Now if you buy off on this line of reasoning . . . the only way I can make an assessment of the DFIC, is to buy one, put it on my car, get it out on the track in similar weather conditions and see where my RPM and shift points are. I know that if it makes a difference, I would want to keep it.
I don't see how a dyno or even results off of another test car without doing a GRS comparison(with scoop) is going to help me in this decision.

But the whole point of this post is that IMO, in assessing an intercooler, the dyno isn't going to measure what we can feel, or witness RPM/Shift differences.

Comments??


OH . . my son just called me. They just got done dynoing the car(dynojet at his mechanics school) and first froze the intercooler with nitrous. 256 whp and 215 ft.lbs. Did it without too. I'll post results in another thread when I get the charts. OH MY. Well I guess cooling is a good mod! Ah, but is it repeatable in the real world! See the issue here!

 

Did I write post #175? No, but that is what I'm saying. Track test it. I just don't want to pay for the R&D. I think M7 should especially since they claim it works in their advertising. I will, however, test it for free as I have offered.