Drivetrain DFIC numbers
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Metro NY
What?
Originally Posted by PARTSMAN109
So, I guess that when you upgrade someone's MINI with MTH(since you are a "specialist"), the difference in the car is not real. It's just the imagination of the customer. Do you send hypnosis software in the bundle so they can have the sensation of more power while not actually having it? If "feel ain't real" then how do people know the vehicle was even modified? I'll tell you how since you are having a difficult time grasping this concept... they feel it.
Former Vendor
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From: Richmond, VA
Originally Posted by dmh
You have put words in my mouth just as others have. "Practically all" is not "All of them? Every single person in sports?" Intellectual honesty, as business honest, ought to be an important concept to you and your business.
Originally Posted by dmh
That is the point. It has been tested and showed to work. Just by increasing the timing...Why am I bothering?
Do they see it? Do they smell it? Do they taste it?
C'mon, say it with me now, Mr. Specialist, they feel it.
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6th Gear
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Originally Posted by dmh
As for the golf business, I have been sitting here most of the day doing the video breakdown of the swings from a few clients at the US Open. They get subcontracted out to me. See my web site www.bigdoggolfvideo.com.
As for feel ain't real practically, the entire sport world recognizes this notion. Check out our clients and you will see how many top level athletes train with video analysis; www.dartfish.com.
And for those interested in NASCAR, Dartfish video has been used by Roush Racing since about 1998. It's not my account but I do follow it. We also sponsor the Pole Vision team in Europe and work with driver development programs from race karts to F1.
Concerning mental health, the notion of feel is what taints it as a legitimate science in the eyes of many.
As for feel ain't real practically, the entire sport world recognizes this notion. Check out our clients and you will see how many top level athletes train with video analysis; www.dartfish.com.
And for those interested in NASCAR, Dartfish video has been used by Roush Racing since about 1998. It's not my account but I do follow it. We also sponsor the Pole Vision team in Europe and work with driver development programs from race karts to F1.
Concerning mental health, the notion of feel is what taints it as a legitimate science in the eyes of many.
I am trying but this is a little off.....I'm glad that you have clients and a nice business......short version......"Kinesiology - the study of the principles of mechanics and anatomy in relation to human movement....." when you break down video your purpose is to look for flaws in the existing movement .....break down the muscle memory of that movement and replace it with a "new desired movement" and retrain new muscle memory......so that the "feel" of the new swing becomes the new correct "feel." Your giving folks half the story so they come to the conclusion you are directing them to....... I have been around too long and know too much about too many subjects to let stuff like this ride......I said this earlier.... you obviousy have experience but yours are not the only experiences that have transpired on this planet......other people know things......and yes I would love to go to the track with you if you come "down here." I might have to bring some of those "soft bats" so we can pummel each other first (no comments about real bats please)
Bob
Former Vendor
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From: Metro NY
You can see MTH...
Originally Posted by PARTSMAN109
But how do your customers know the software is installed?
Do they see it? Do they smell it? Do they taste it?
C'mon, say it with me now, Mr. Specialist, they feel it.
Do they see it? Do they smell it? Do they taste it?
C'mon, say it with me now, Mr. Specialist, they feel it.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Metro NY
Not exactly...
Originally Posted by SpiderX
Don
I am trying but this is a little off.....I'm glad that you have clients and a nice business......short version......"Kinesiology - the study of the principles of mechanics and anatomy in relation to human movement....." when you break down video your purpose is to look for flaws in the existing movement .....break down the muscle memory of that movement and replace it with a "new desired movement" and retrain new muscle memory......so that the "feel" of the new swing becomes the new correct "feel." Your giving folks half the story so they come to the conclusion you are directing them to....... I have been around too long and know too much about too many subjects to let stuff like this ride......I said this earlier.... you obviousy have experience but yours are not the only experiences that have transpired on this planet......other people know things......and yes I would love to go to the track with you if you come "down here." I might have to bring some of those "soft bats" so we can pummel each other first (no comments about real bats please)
Bob
I am trying but this is a little off.....I'm glad that you have clients and a nice business......short version......"Kinesiology - the study of the principles of mechanics and anatomy in relation to human movement....." when you break down video your purpose is to look for flaws in the existing movement .....break down the muscle memory of that movement and replace it with a "new desired movement" and retrain new muscle memory......so that the "feel" of the new swing becomes the new correct "feel." Your giving folks half the story so they come to the conclusion you are directing them to....... I have been around too long and know too much about too many subjects to let stuff like this ride......I said this earlier.... you obviousy have experience but yours are not the only experiences that have transpired on this planet......other people know things......and yes I would love to go to the track with you if you come "down here." I might have to bring some of those "soft bats" so we can pummel each other first (no comments about real bats please)
Bob
After the bats, a hand shake would clear this all up.
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,233
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From: San Francisco
dmh is getting flamed pretty badly here, but in his defense I think we do need some better validation than somebody saying that he "feels" a difference. We've all seen some reviews of smooth and quiet but powerful cars where the reviewer is surprised to discover he has hit 90 mph. It can easily happen the other way, where a car "feels" faster and more powerful, but there is no real substance. Something like Randy's statement that he can use a higher gear gives much more credibility than a simple comment about "feel".
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Metro NY
M7...
How about this: You loan me a DFIC to test at The Glen at the end of July. We have the entire track for 8 hours! I will report back on inlet temp, boost, max RPM and the like. What do you say?
Originally Posted by dmh
You can see MTH...software installed.
Man, I need to get one of those!
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 855
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dmh
I'd like to know that your DFIC works but from what I can tell my stock IC delivered practically the same intake temp as yours.
Yes, your stock i/c delivered practically the same intake temp, but without knowing the starting point (pre-i/c temp), that is a meaningless comparison. For a facetious example, if the pre-temp was 160, and the post-temp was 140, a temp drop of 20 is not going to get anyone's beanie spinning.
Throw in the differences in ambient temp, and it would be very helpful to know what the pre-i/c number was. If you don't have it, life will continue, it would just be a tremendous help in comparing the two scoop & i/c systems under discussion here.
P.S. Not trying to throw spears or impugn you or anyone else, I'd just like more info to be able to make a more complete comparison.
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6th Gear
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Originally Posted by dmh
There is no such thing as muscle memory. Memory resides in the mind.
After the bats, a hand shake would clear this all up.
After the bats, a hand shake would clear this all up.
I would be happy to shake your hand.
Bob
Former Vendor
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From: Metro NY
Software is available...
Originally Posted by PARTSMAN109
Do you have a transparent ECU mounted on the dash, where you can actually see the MTH software running around inside it?
Man, I need to get one of those!
Man, I need to get one of those!
Former Vendor
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 306
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From: Richmond, VA
I don't think he's being flamed, just making poor statements and being called out for them.
But very often there's been a real correlation between the feel of a mod, and data that proves the feeling out. If you add a rear sway bar or a pulley to an othewise stock car, and go for a drive, there is a definate difference that can be felt by the driver. The car has changed, and it can be felt. A before and after dyno on the same day back to back will show a difference, which we can take as a real result.
So the question becomes one of what can a driver feel? Well, if SpiderX can feel that the new pulley made a definate change in the cars performance, because he is intimately familiar with how his car operates, then why must dmh assume and assert, without an valid proof or arguments, that something like an intake or the DFIC makes no difference without any direct correlative proof to the contrary?
Fact is, he doesn't know, and is not qualified to say so without having tried the product. SpiderX is a very knowledgable driver, and if he says a product makes a difference, then I'm inclined to trust him. I believe that if the DFIC hadn't performed to his expectations, he would have kindly said so and would have likely returned his DFIC.
But very often there's been a real correlation between the feel of a mod, and data that proves the feeling out. If you add a rear sway bar or a pulley to an othewise stock car, and go for a drive, there is a definate difference that can be felt by the driver. The car has changed, and it can be felt. A before and after dyno on the same day back to back will show a difference, which we can take as a real result.
So the question becomes one of what can a driver feel? Well, if SpiderX can feel that the new pulley made a definate change in the cars performance, because he is intimately familiar with how his car operates, then why must dmh assume and assert, without an valid proof or arguments, that something like an intake or the DFIC makes no difference without any direct correlative proof to the contrary?
Fact is, he doesn't know, and is not qualified to say so without having tried the product. SpiderX is a very knowledgable driver, and if he says a product makes a difference, then I'm inclined to trust him. I believe that if the DFIC hadn't performed to his expectations, he would have kindly said so and would have likely returned his DFIC.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
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From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Originally Posted by 62Lincoln
And I will try one last time: do you know what the pre-i/c temp was or not?
Yes, your stock i/c delivered practically the same intake temp, but without knowing the starting point (pre-i/c temp), that is a meaningless comparison. For a facetious example, if the pre-temp was 160, and the post-temp was 140, a temp drop of 20 is not going to get anyone's beanie spinning.
Throw in the differences in ambient temp, and it would be very helpful to know what the pre-i/c number was. If you don't have it, life will continue, it would just be a tremendous help in comparing the two scoop & i/c systems under discussion here.
P.S. Not trying to throw spears or impugn you or anyone else, I'd just like more info to be able to make a more complete comparison.
Yes, your stock i/c delivered practically the same intake temp, but without knowing the starting point (pre-i/c temp), that is a meaningless comparison. For a facetious example, if the pre-temp was 160, and the post-temp was 140, a temp drop of 20 is not going to get anyone's beanie spinning.
Throw in the differences in ambient temp, and it would be very helpful to know what the pre-i/c number was. If you don't have it, life will continue, it would just be a tremendous help in comparing the two scoop & i/c systems under discussion here.
P.S. Not trying to throw spears or impugn you or anyone else, I'd just like more info to be able to make a more complete comparison.
the delta across the core divided by the delta pre-core and ambient or:
inlet - outlet/inlet - ambient
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6th Gear
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Originally Posted by rkw
dmh is getting flamed pretty badly here, but in his defense I think we do need some better validation than somebody saying that he "feels" a difference. We've all seen some reviews of smooth and quiet but powerful cars where the reviewer is surprised to discover he has hit 90 mph. It can easily happen the other way, where a car "feels" faster and more powerful, but there is no real substance. Something like Randy's statement that he can use a higher gear gives much more credibility than a simple comment about "feel".
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
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From: Metro NY
I gave all I had in my first post.
Originally Posted by 62Lincoln
And I will try one last time: do you know what the pre-i/c temp was or not?
Yes, your stock i/c delivered practically the same intake temp, but without knowing the starting point (pre-i/c temp), that is a meaningless comparison. For a facetious example, if the pre-temp was 160, and the post-temp was 140, a temp drop of 20 is not going to get anyone's beanie spinning.
Throw in the differences in ambient temp, and it would be very helpful to know what the pre-i/c number was. If you don't have it, life will continue, it would just be a tremendous help in comparing the two scoop & i/c systems under discussion here.
P.S. Not trying to throw spears or impugn you or anyone else, I'd just like more info to be able to make a more complete comparison.
Yes, your stock i/c delivered practically the same intake temp, but without knowing the starting point (pre-i/c temp), that is a meaningless comparison. For a facetious example, if the pre-temp was 160, and the post-temp was 140, a temp drop of 20 is not going to get anyone's beanie spinning.
Throw in the differences in ambient temp, and it would be very helpful to know what the pre-i/c number was. If you don't have it, life will continue, it would just be a tremendous help in comparing the two scoop & i/c systems under discussion here.
P.S. Not trying to throw spears or impugn you or anyone else, I'd just like more info to be able to make a more complete comparison.
I was running my car much harder and all I ever said was that the inlet temps were similar!
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6th Gear
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Originally Posted by Will @ M7 Tuning
I don't think he's being flamed, just making poor statements and being called out for them.
But very often there's been a real correlation between the feel of a mod, and data that proves the feeling out. If you add a rear sway bar or a pulley to an othewise stock car, and go for a drive, there is a definate difference that can be felt by the driver. The car has changed, and it can be felt. A before and after dyno on the same day back to back will show a difference, which we can take as a real result.
So the question becomes one of what can a driver feel? Well, if SpiderX can feel that the new pulley made a definate change in the cars performance, because he is intimately familiar with how his car operates, then why must dmh assume and assert, without an valid proof or arguments, that something like an intake or the DFIC makes no difference without any direct correlative proof to the contrary?
Fact is, he doesn't know, and is not qualified to say so without having tried the product. SpiderX is a very knowledgable driver, and if he says a product makes a difference, then I'm inclined to trust him. I believe that if the DFIC hadn't performed to his expectations, he would have kindly said so and would have likely returned his DFIC.
But very often there's been a real correlation between the feel of a mod, and data that proves the feeling out. If you add a rear sway bar or a pulley to an othewise stock car, and go for a drive, there is a definate difference that can be felt by the driver. The car has changed, and it can be felt. A before and after dyno on the same day back to back will show a difference, which we can take as a real result.
So the question becomes one of what can a driver feel? Well, if SpiderX can feel that the new pulley made a definate change in the cars performance, because he is intimately familiar with how his car operates, then why must dmh assume and assert, without an valid proof or arguments, that something like an intake or the DFIC makes no difference without any direct correlative proof to the contrary?
Fact is, he doesn't know, and is not qualified to say so without having tried the product. SpiderX is a very knowledgable driver, and if he says a product makes a difference, then I'm inclined to trust him. I believe that if the DFIC hadn't performed to his expectations, he would have kindly said so and would have likely returned his DFIC.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Metro NY
Read this entire thread.
Originally Posted by Will @ M7 Tuning
I don't think he's being flamed, just making poor statements and being called out for them.
But very often there's been a real correlation between the feel of a mod, and data that proves the feeling out. If you add a rear sway bar or a pulley to an othewise stock car, and go for a drive, there is a definate difference that can be felt by the driver. The car has changed, and it can be felt. A before and after dyno on the same day back to back will show a difference, which we can take as a real result.
So the question becomes one of what can a driver feel? Well, if SpiderX can feel that the new pulley made a definate change in the cars performance, because he is intimately familiar with how his car operates, then why must dmh assume and assert, without an valid proof or arguments, that something like an intake or the DFIC makes no difference without any direct correlative proof to the contrary?
Fact is, he doesn't know, and is not qualified to say so without having tried the product. SpiderX is a very knowledgable driver, and if he says a product makes a difference, then I'm inclined to trust him. I believe that if the DFIC hadn't performed to his expectations, he would have kindly said so and would have likely returned his DFIC.
But very often there's been a real correlation between the feel of a mod, and data that proves the feeling out. If you add a rear sway bar or a pulley to an othewise stock car, and go for a drive, there is a definate difference that can be felt by the driver. The car has changed, and it can be felt. A before and after dyno on the same day back to back will show a difference, which we can take as a real result.
So the question becomes one of what can a driver feel? Well, if SpiderX can feel that the new pulley made a definate change in the cars performance, because he is intimately familiar with how his car operates, then why must dmh assume and assert, without an valid proof or arguments, that something like an intake or the DFIC makes no difference without any direct correlative proof to the contrary?
Fact is, he doesn't know, and is not qualified to say so without having tried the product. SpiderX is a very knowledgable driver, and if he says a product makes a difference, then I'm inclined to trust him. I believe that if the DFIC hadn't performed to his expectations, he would have kindly said so and would have likely returned his DFIC.
Suspension engineers can determine the effect of a sway bar. It is not feel alone. A pulley's effectiveness can be measured on a dyno. It is not feel alone. That is exactly my point; not the counter point you and the others have been trying to make! I am saying that feel could be real but it ain't always so. That is what the saying "feel ain't real" means. Test it.
The question I have been asking is: Does your new DFIC work? And if so, do you have properly documented proof? But if you are selling feel or image just let us know and I will drop it. And do you want to take me up on my offer of testing it at Watkins Glen?
Last edited by dmh; Jun 19, 2006 at 05:52 PM.
Banned
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Originally Posted by rkw
dmh is getting flamed pretty badly here, but in his defense I think we do need some better validation than somebody saying that he "feels" a difference. We've all seen some reviews of smooth and quiet but powerful cars where the reviewer is surprised to discover he has hit 90 mph. It can easily happen the other way, where a car "feels" faster and more powerful, but there is no real substance. Something like Randy's statement that he can use a higher gear gives much more credibility than a simple comment about "feel".
Post the numbers and let them do the talking. There's nothing to attack or defend here because no one has proven that the DFIC increases hp or torque. If I'm wrong and you have, post 'em.
Instead of spawning 5 pages of crap spanning golf swings, the correct spelling of Ayn Rand's name and other tangents that don't do anything but obfuscate the issue, prove Don's theory right or wrong about the butt dyno in relation to the DFIC - post data.
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by dmh
All I have is 145 deg F inlet temp. I was running my car much harder and all I ever said was that the inlet temps were similar!
Former Vendor
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From: Metro NY
I did get off on quite a tangent, didn't I? Sitting in front of my computer most of the day can do that to me. Interestingly, I made only one typo. But I am serious on this note: I will give M7 my credit card for a deposit on their new DFIC and I will go to Watkins Glen and do some testing as best and honestly as I can. I’m paying for the track time; the data is free. What say you M7?
Last edited by dmh; Jun 19, 2006 at 05:23 PM.
Turbius Maximus
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From: Infinity and beyond
Originally Posted by rkw
dmh is getting flamed pretty badly here, but in his defense I think we do need some better validation than somebody saying that he "feels" a difference. We've all seen some reviews of smooth and quiet but powerful cars where the reviewer is surprised to discover he has hit 90 mph. It can easily happen the other way, where a car "feels" faster and more powerful, but there is no real substance. Something like Randy's statement that he can use a higher gear gives much more credibility than a simple comment about "feel".
I have offered to test it...
DMH has offered to test it in a better enviroment than I have to offer.... the glenn is a very intense track...
Come on... lets have it tested... I like the concept...AAAAND it looks kewl!
My offer stands to test it! I will use the stock... DFIC and the ALTA... I will record pre IC and post IC temps... along with the humidity and temp of the time and day... to keep it simple... then there is no more blah blah blah.... let's just get it done....
I offered to test it back at AMVIV....woot!
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Naperville, IL
Originally Posted by Tuls
HERE HERE! I just wrote to him to say thanks for using facts... I gave up here a long time ago...
I have offered to test it...
DMH has offered to test it in a better enviroment than I have to offer.... the glenn is a very intense track...
Come on M7... lets have it tested... I like the concept... let's see if it really doing what people think... if not.. oh well it looks kewl!
My offer stands to test it! I will use the stock... DFIC and the ALTA... I will record pre IC and post IC temps... along with the humidity and temp of the time and day... to keep it simple... then there is no more blah blah blah.... let's just get it done....
I dunno about you guys but I hate the blah blah... that's why I offered to test it back at AMVIV.... I was hoping to you guys to avoid this blathering... heh heh
I have offered to test it...
DMH has offered to test it in a better enviroment than I have to offer.... the glenn is a very intense track...
Come on M7... lets have it tested... I like the concept... let's see if it really doing what people think... if not.. oh well it looks kewl!
My offer stands to test it! I will use the stock... DFIC and the ALTA... I will record pre IC and post IC temps... along with the humidity and temp of the time and day... to keep it simple... then there is no more blah blah blah.... let's just get it done....
I dunno about you guys but I hate the blah blah... that's why I offered to test it back at AMVIV.... I was hoping to you guys to avoid this blathering... heh heh
