Drivetrain DFIC numbers
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
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From: Infinity and beyond
Originally Posted by obehave
I didn't say it wasn't important. And I didn't say "that the #s would be skewed at WOT" but I could have been more clear and said it will skew results.
Originally Posted by Ingsoc
WTF? This is a public forum, and believe it or not, I'm fully technically capable of speaking on this topic (humidity and ICs). Spoken, I have. [IMG]images/smilies/mad.gif[/IMG]
Sorry bout that.... I have PMed Ingsoc to straighten this out....
Obehave.. I see what you mean now.... sorry bout that... heh...
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
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From: Infinity and beyond
yeah.. this is all right on the head... so I guess the only way to figure it out as ussual... is same day, same car with in a short time... so vaiables are nill..just what is the temp going in.. and what out... BAM done... LOL... keep me posted on when you get one....
Originally Posted by ingsoc
The efficiency versus humidity thing is really interesting. Here's how I understand it...
As humidity goes up, "air" has more water and less gas (O2, N2, etc.) is present, per unit volume. The air density goes up (water weighs more than the component gases) as the partial pressure of water goes up. The intercooler fins, which are in close proximity, has more dense/more viscous air to pass through the spaces between the fins. There is more turbulence created, so air passes through slower and it can heat up a bit. The turbulence also upsets the boundary layer at the surface of the fins, upsetting heat exchange. Additionally, since you have more water vapor in your air mixture, the efficiency of the air at transferring heat changes- how this affects the conductivity of the air is kinda complicated... Overall, though, efficiency seems to go down in humid weather.
Whew, was that technical enough??? lol. That's how I've come to understand efficiency vs. humidity.
When I get one of these things, I'll send it to you for sure! I just need to save some money
. Oh, the heartache of being just a student....lol 
.
As humidity goes up, "air" has more water and less gas (O2, N2, etc.) is present, per unit volume. The air density goes up (water weighs more than the component gases) as the partial pressure of water goes up. The intercooler fins, which are in close proximity, has more dense/more viscous air to pass through the spaces between the fins. There is more turbulence created, so air passes through slower and it can heat up a bit. The turbulence also upsets the boundary layer at the surface of the fins, upsetting heat exchange. Additionally, since you have more water vapor in your air mixture, the efficiency of the air at transferring heat changes- how this affects the conductivity of the air is kinda complicated... Overall, though, efficiency seems to go down in humid weather.
Whew, was that technical enough??? lol. That's how I've come to understand efficiency vs. humidity.
When I get one of these things, I'll send it to you for sure! I just need to save some money
. Oh, the heartache of being just a student....lol .
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
Originally Posted by Tuls
yeah.. this is all right on the head... so I guess the only way to figure it out as ussual... is same day, same car with in a short time... so vaiables are nill..just what is the temp going in.. and what out... BAM done... LOL... keep me posted on when you get one....
. I read over it and it made me light-headed because I started thinking about molecular density and got all confounded, so I decided to just cut it out, because probably nobody cares but me...lol. Numbers are more fun (and easy 
)!Sounds like a good excuse to have a MINI meet. Ye-yeah!
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 913
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May I suggest another way to evaluate intercoolers. Daily driving temperatures will be affected by heat sink, causing deltas between tests, cars and intercoolers to be like comparing apples to oranges. Instead pick a baseline; Ambient air temp/humidity, coolant temp and intake air temp and boost. Once that has been reached do a full throttle run to redline then maintane a set speed to record the recovery time. This will show the intercoolers heat rise and recovery characteristics, which are most important to me.
efficiency is one thing, but efficiency while accellerating is another. Besides, *they are all going to get hot at a stop light.
Suggested test plan, not exact specs.
Ambient temp 75*
Humidity 50%
Intake air temp 15* delta over ambient
Coolant temp 190* or whatever the average stock temp is. (I have m7)
Run from 2k rpm to 7k rpm in 2nd gear then cruise at 3k rpm.
Group results by similar pre intercooler and boost #'s
*smart a$$es need not argue semantics.
efficiency is one thing, but efficiency while accellerating is another. Besides, *they are all going to get hot at a stop light.
Suggested test plan, not exact specs.
Ambient temp 75*
Humidity 50%
Intake air temp 15* delta over ambient
Coolant temp 190* or whatever the average stock temp is. (I have m7)
Run from 2k rpm to 7k rpm in 2nd gear then cruise at 3k rpm.
Group results by similar pre intercooler and boost #'s
*smart a$$es need not argue semantics.
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
Originally Posted by 002
May I suggest another way to evaluate intercoolers. Daily driving temperatures will be affected by heat sink, causing deltas between tests, cars and intercoolers to be like comparing apples to oranges. Instead pick a baseline; Ambient air temp/humidity, coolant temp and intake air temp and boost. Once that has been reached do a full throttle run to redline then maintane a set speed to record the recovery time. This will show the intercoolers heat rise and recovery characteristics, which are most important to me.
efficiency is one thing, but efficiency while accellerating is another. Besides, *they are all going to get hot at a stop light.
Suggested test plan, not exact specs.
Ambient temp 75*
Humidity 50%
Intake air temp 15* delta over ambient
Coolant temp 190* or whatever the average stock temp is. (I have m7)
Run from 2k rpm to 7k rpm in 2nd gear then cruise at 3k rpm.
Group results by similar pre intercooler and boost #'s
*smart a$$es need not argue semantics.
efficiency is one thing, but efficiency while accellerating is another. Besides, *they are all going to get hot at a stop light.
Suggested test plan, not exact specs.
Ambient temp 75*
Humidity 50%
Intake air temp 15* delta over ambient
Coolant temp 190* or whatever the average stock temp is. (I have m7)
Run from 2k rpm to 7k rpm in 2nd gear then cruise at 3k rpm.
Group results by similar pre intercooler and boost #'s
*smart a$$es need not argue semantics.
maybe better... which helps alot....I thnk most important is, it must be the same car... like you said every car is different... it's a pretty simple test too... and quick to change out the IC.. so temp in the day is not likely to change... lastly... I think 3rd gear would be better... allows for more realistic load on the car... and longer boost time... for me 2nd would be eaten up so fast it's not worth it...
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,808
Likes: 3
Originally Posted by Jenn B
From what I observed, the post intercooler temp went down slowly with maintained speed but the temps shot in either direction with acceleration. This was extremely evident at high speeds but also true at accel from a stand still. It was kind of crazy to watch the numbers go so fast away from each other... the hot getting hotter and the other getting cooler and cooler.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 913
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Originally Posted by Tuls
this is pretty much what I was thinking.... only in AZ I can get humidity to 15%
I thnk most important is it must be the same car... like you said every car is different... and I think 3rd gear would be better... allows for more realistic load on the car...
I thnk most important is it must be the same car... like you said every car is different... and I think 3rd gear would be better... allows for more realistic load on the car...
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Hard to argue with that approach!
I too feel that recovery rate is very important. A gut-feeling... The DFIC will do exceptionally well in this regard. I hope to feel the difference fairly soon!
I too feel that recovery rate is very important. A gut-feeling... The DFIC will do exceptionally well in this regard. I hope to feel the difference fairly soon!
Turbius Maximus
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,416
Likes: 0
From: Infinity and beyond
Originally Posted by 002
I don't expect every intercooler to be tested on one car
Originally Posted by 002
Some chargers may be less efficient than others.
Let's keep it simple... one car... one day... with in an hr... it's so simple... what is temp before IC... what is temp after IC... if it's working it will show a temp drop...
the presure drops are only relative to before the box is filled... and I dunno about you guys... I'll give up 1000 RPMs from 2000 - 3000 to have my intercooler allow me to have more power... cuase i can down shift... hence getting into the power band...
if I wanna pass... traveling at 70 MPH and I am in 6th.. I down shift to 4th... the car goes... pulley or TC or Turbo only....
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6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
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Originally Posted by Jenn B
The 65 and 90 MPH numbers were holding stready at those speeds for a few minutes.
I only wrote down the RPM's for the 4th gear 65 MPH run... 4K.
If I get to be part of the next tests, I'll write down a lot more. I've never really done this stuff before. If someone who really knows what they are talking about wants to make up a chart for testing data and procedures, I will use it or pass it on to who will. For example, what speeds to hold at, what gears to be in for max. efficiency, etc.
I only wrote down the RPM's for the 4th gear 65 MPH run... 4K.
If I get to be part of the next tests, I'll write down a lot more. I've never really done this stuff before. If someone who really knows what they are talking about wants to make up a chart for testing data and procedures, I will use it or pass it on to who will. For example, what speeds to hold at, what gears to be in for max. efficiency, etc.
I would like to emphasize Jenn's point..... neither of us had a clue what we should be doing so we did a lot of things and Jenn wrote down a lot.... the planning and implementation was "hey, I've got the thingy in the back of the car, wanna do it,.... sure" in go the probes and off we were less than 5 minutes later.... Jenn had a two minute converstaion with Peter, who was on his way to friends, (in LA).....that was the whole of our training and prep..... I think Jenn did a great job..... her sheet was full of numbers......
you can test all you want but I will say that on my car it "works" better than the Alta...... it reminds me that I was told I would lose mid range power with the race cam and nothing could be further from the truth.....I leave it open that for some configs other designs may work very well....I simply don't know.....on my car the DFIC "is the bomb"
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: Naperville, IL
Originally Posted by SpiderX
Good morning everyone,
I would like to emphasize Jenn's point..... neither of us had a clue what we should be doing so we did a lot of things and Jenn wrote down a lot.... the planning and implementation was "hey, I've got the thingy in the back of the car, wanna do it, sure" in go the probes and off we were less than 5 minutes later.... Jenn had a two minute converstaion with Peter, who was on his way t friends.....that was the whole of our training and prep..... I think Jenn did a great job..... her sheet was full of numbers......
you can test all you want but I will say that on my car it "works" better than the Alta...... it reminds me that I was told I would lose mid range power with the race cam and nothing could be further from the truth.....I leave it open that for some configs other designs will work very well....I simply don't know.....on my car the DFIC "is the bomb"
I would like to emphasize Jenn's point..... neither of us had a clue what we should be doing so we did a lot of things and Jenn wrote down a lot.... the planning and implementation was "hey, I've got the thingy in the back of the car, wanna do it, sure" in go the probes and off we were less than 5 minutes later.... Jenn had a two minute converstaion with Peter, who was on his way t friends.....that was the whole of our training and prep..... I think Jenn did a great job..... her sheet was full of numbers......
you can test all you want but I will say that on my car it "works" better than the Alta...... it reminds me that I was told I would lose mid range power with the race cam and nothing could be further from the truth.....I leave it open that for some configs other designs will work very well....I simply don't know.....on my car the DFIC "is the bomb"
So maybe one major issue is just to get more air through these things to begin with.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
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From: Metro NY
Stock IC numbers...
Originally Posted by Jenn B
DFIC
90MPH-
In Out
234 149
204 144
207 149
Some facts I do know... I have yet to meet someone that has one of the DFIC's that says they can't feel it. And it makes sense.
70 deg F (16 deg F cooler)
1100' elevation=14.2 MAP
28 MAP=1 bar boost
204 deg F water temp
145 deg F air inlet temp (about the same!)
BBR bonnet scoop
Facts?
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6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
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Originally Posted by mtrspt5
And just to get into the mix here and rabble-rouse a little . . . adding the extreme scoop to my GRS made a very noticeable butt-dyno difference – much more than I ever expected. SpideX, my reaction was the same as yours when you first tried the DFIC.
So maybe one major issue is just to get more air through these things to begin with.
So maybe one major issue is just to get more air through these things to begin with.
The DFIC and its asymetrical scoop is the "system" ...... the DFIC "scoop" makes a huge difference to the DFIC as well....it has a special asymetrical shape to focus the air stream throught the IC...... I am thinking of modifying the bonnet to allow air to flow directly out .....
Originally Posted by dmh
Measured through the OBDII at Watkins Glen going into the 'inner loop':
70 deg F (16 deg F cooler)
1100' elevation=14.2 MAP
28 MAP=1 bar boost
204 deg F water temp
145 deg F air inlet temp (about the same!)
BBR bonnet scoop
Facts?
70 deg F (16 deg F cooler)
1100' elevation=14.2 MAP
28 MAP=1 bar boost
204 deg F water temp
145 deg F air inlet temp (about the same!)
BBR bonnet scoop
Facts?
Anyone with scientific knowledge want to comment on that one and let us know what that comparison means?
And yes, my comment was factual. I happened to see some of the first DFIC's go onto the cars and every owner has openly praised them and says they can feel it. My comment was that I have yet to meet someone with a DFIC that says they can't tell a difference, and I haven't.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Wesport
Hi Jen and Spider - How did I miss an Atlanta event with 100 Mini's. I could have made it 101. Except mine is in peices at the moment getting FSD'd, Ireland camber plates and Powerfelx bushings - to do to follow. Please put me on the mailing list for future Atlanta area events. Lets all go play at Raod Atlanta soon also.
Thanks
Wes
Thanks
Wes
Are the bushings for the front and rear or what?
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Tuls
WOOT! all better...
::Hugs NAM::
::Hugs NAM::
I figured it was something in the way I posted. What I'm thinking doesn't always translate well into what I type. That's my issue not yours
Honestly I always hope someone does something groundbreaking.
At the very least makes a good improvement.
That's why I fart around with stuff like the thread trying to improve the conventional IC. It's just plain fun and if it pays off? Woo Hoo!
If it doesn't? Woo Hoo! I got to blow time playing with my car
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
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From: Metro NY
Not exactly!
Originally Posted by Jenn B
Yeah.... but there is quite a difference between a NY 70 and a GA 90 degree day.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Dear Penthouse:
snip.... "hey, I've got the thingy in the back of the car, wanna do it,.... sure" in go the probes and off we were less than 5 minutes later.... .....snip
Sorry...... I just couldn't help it
Originally Posted by SpiderX
snip.... "hey, I've got the thingy in the back of the car, wanna do it,.... sure" in go the probes and off we were less than 5 minutes later.... .....snip
Sorry...... I just couldn't help it
Originally Posted by dmh
Maybe; I've raced at Road Atlanta many times. But the ambient difference I recorded was 16 deg F less. The air inlet temp was 4 deg F less. Are you certain you can feel that difference?
I did not drive this exact car before the intercooler. Am I certain? I doubt that the people who own these are just lying for the hell of it. Seriously people.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by mtrspt5
And just to get into the mix here and rabble-rouse a little . . . adding the extreme scoop to my GRS made a very noticeable butt-dyno difference – much more than I ever expected. SpideX, my reaction was the same as yours when you first tried the DFIC.
So maybe one major issue is just to get more air through these things to begin with.
So maybe one major issue is just to get more air through these things to begin with.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by dmh
Maybe; I've raced at Road Atlanta many times. But the ambient difference I recorded was 16 deg F less. The air inlet temp was 4 deg F less. Are you certain you can feel that difference?
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
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From: Metro NY
Serouisly, what?
Originally Posted by Jenn B
And that is why I asked people with true scientific knowledge to give us their input on the situation.
I did not drive this exact car before the intercooler. Am I certain? I doubt that the people who own these are just lying for the hell of it. Seriously people.
I did not drive this exact car before the intercooler. Am I certain? I doubt that the people who own these are just lying for the hell of it. Seriously people.