I was thinking of adding a lightweight crank pulley to my 2005 MCS but received this reply by DINAN. I know this isn't the opinion of other tuners but now I am reluctant to add this mod especially since the performance gain is minor compared to many other bolt-on mods. Please comment.

Thanks for your inquiry, however, we do not sell, nor will we, lightweight crank pulleys for the MINI given the fact that they quickly degrade the damper and damage the engine. Steve Dinan wrote a white paper on this at http://www.dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5 , while he talks about the BMW E36 engines, it applies fairly universally. We did experiment with the pulley system on the MINI Cooper S and found the same damaging results. Since Dinan exists to provide products that do more good than harm, this is something we cannot, with good conscience, offer Micah Burke DINAN
408-779-8584

 

Larry,
I agree with that white paper that was written, plus considering all the support that BMW NA is giving them I dont think that they would want to step into something that at any point would jeopardize the motor in any way shape or form. If BMW NA is against it then I dont want to do it. Just my thoughts.

 

Wow, I guess all the thousands of Neon owners (the Mini engine is derived from the Dodge Neon 2.0 engine and the design/engineering is basically the same for both) who are running lightweight underdriven crank pulleys must be running on borrowed time then? Or could it be that it is actually ok? Having been involved in the Neon world heavily for 10+ years, I have yet to hear of any bottom end engine failures that could be in any way connected to a lightweight UDP. I had them on both of my Neons before I sold them, and numerous people have had them on their Neons for 100,000+ miles. One of the only things stopping me from pursuing the option for my Mini is that it isn't allowed in the class I race in. There are other cars who will see premature engine failure from running a lightweight UDP, ours are not one of them. Exactly how much does our engine have in common with the BMW E36 engine?

 

DINAN stated that they did "experiments" with the MINI S and it damaged the engine. Does anyone know more about this???

 

That's interesting that Dinan stated that they actually tested it. I know that Webb Motorsports sells the crank pulleys on the basis that the motors were designed to run w/o the harmonic dampers (which are actually vibration dampers).

Another thing to realize is that Dinan has BMW warranty backing, which means VEEEEERRRY conservative when it comes to what they deem to be damaging.

 

Dinan does NOT have a BMW warranty backing ... it has its own warranty. Buy Dinan parts installed by a BMW dealer and they honor the Dinan warranty, not the MINI warranty.

All the other vendors selling parts have, basically, one interest. To make money. Lots of modders like to experiment and could care less about the warranty. If your willing to buy, they will most likely be willing to sell so I don't see this being any kind of issue. Thats to not imply whether any part or vendor is doing anything wrong but more the old adage "caveat emptor"

I believe mdsbrains had an issue with his 0 percent crank pulley and ended up taking it off.

 

I think WMS warranties their crank pulleys for two years.

 

lightweight crank pullies. While there have been some fitment issues, there haven't been any crank or bearing failures cited. Some of the original liturature said that the ressonance that was an issue was with the accessory drive systems.

But keep in mind the Mini motor is very short, and the BMW is very long. The cranks are very different, and subject to very different forces.

Matt

 

True and an inline 6 is the most naturally harmonically balanced engine design.

 

The European Neon runs the engine that is a Tritec sibling. The US 2 liter Neon engine has nothing in common with the MINI engine.

 

I do not know about Dinan's expirements...however, I do know that I have a friend who put on on...and not a month later he through a rod.....guess he was the lucky one....

not one of the cars I have worked on has had this happen...even with 500 WHP and BELIVE ME I have seen those mini motors take some abuse...adn they never through a rod...but this one...was only a pulley car...and WHAM! rod out the side....

Now I know lots of people are going to say..."I have one! no problems!" that's great...and I have 340 WHP...I am not taking that chance...I'l rather get a light weight Fly wheel/clutch set up...it's will do more....and is 100% safe!

that's my .02 just info...

not saying anyting about which way to go...

 

as it is less of an oscillating mass.....

Matt

 

do you mean like the combo of the two?

just trying to be spcific

 

I'm not saying they share a lot of parts, I'm saying that the Mini engine was co-developed between Chrysler and BMW, and the basic design has much in common with the Neon 2.0 engine. The Mini engine is a whole lot closer to a Neon 2.0L engine than it is to a BMW E36 straight 6 engine.

-Keith

 

I get amused by the fear tactics with ignorant tuners accustomed to inline-6 and V-8 engines that generally do need a crank damper, pushing their irrelevant wisdom when comes time to work with inline-4's.

One of the versions of the Tritec engine proposed by Chrysler to BMW had no crank damper, however BMW rejected it only because it had marginally too much NVH for their targets. Just a bit of faded triva for you paranoid types that think OEM's never ponder "what if".

 

Mdsbrain had a warped block, which resulted in 2 blown head gaskets, which Mini replaced under warranty... and even though they scared the crap out of him about it, he did in fact have the crank pulley installed the first time it failed. He had Randy Webb install the stock crank pulley just in case... head gasket blew after that was back on.

Tuls... your friend is the first person I've really heard of that had a real issue with the crank pulley. What did the find caused a thrown rod exactly? What I mean is... did the lack of the stock crank pulley cause premature wear somewhere that allowed that to happen?

 

I think what happened was exactly what is in the dinan report...everything is about frequency and balance

no one really has enough miles yet to see this effect....he did....and recived the worst of it...again...it's not wear that causes one to throw a rod...it's things not operating properly...or being balanced...etc....like dinan talks about....[SIZE=2]Torsional Vibration [/SIZE]for instance...

everyone can speculate about it...if you wanna do it...do it...I agree with Dinan...there are better ways of achiving this sort of perfomance...again..like a light weight fly wheel...

expensive....yes....I have siad it before and I'll say it again

you get what you pay for

I don't know everything...but I know that...heh heh....hey...who knows...maybe I am just missing out on the pulley thing....LOL....

 

The correspondence from Dinan specifically stated that the lightweight pulley damaged the MINI S engine during their experiments. If this is true it is not the same as extrapolating data from their inline-6 and v-8 engines. Has anyone seen Dinan's testing data regarding the lightweight pulley on the MINI S?

 

Tuls, is this the car that you are referring to?

Minicoop78:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...8&postcount=21
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...4&postcount=29

He says there in the second post that he really doubts that it was due to any one mod and that he had really beat the motor for more than 100k miles before adding the crank pulley... I don't know about the scientific power of his one case- the whole weight of evidence must be considered. Many others, a number of whom have no doubt also beat the hell outta their motors, have had/do have nothing but good experiences. I am one of them, except for the beating the snot outta my car part! I change the oil more frequently, get it serviced professionally more frequently, and I don't do stupid stuff like flat shift. 8k rpm a couple of times a week, 18% effective reduction, 11k miles on that combo [5k or so on the software, which is just about done being developed...].

PS: His oil looks well fried . I wonder what his interval for changing was...

 

I read all about this subject when I should have been working... oops. But anyway what i came across is that it may cause vibrational issues at low RPM's. I don't remember what post I read that from (I don't feel like looking for it now) but the "vibration" was in the 1800 RPM range, so the bottom line is do what you want. If you track your car it shouldn't be a problem, but if you use it as an everyday driver then make sure you weigh your options. Untill there are some long term results with clear cut answers to whether the light weight crank pulley is good or bad you should just know that there is the possibility that it might wreck your engine. (a tear for a broken MINI)

 

This issue, including the stance of Dinan has been beaten to death thousands of times on every car messageboard across the internet.

Another thread we do not need...

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ms/search.php?
http://www.google.com/

 

The correspondence from Dinan specifically did not include any real information other than unsubstantiated claims. Dinan is the type of aftermarket botique company that wouldn't be interested in a crank pulley for a 4-banger JUST for the reason it slightly increases NVH.

Here's a good example of how inept Dinan is: regarding their "Boost Upgrade"
This is pretty much a joke of aftermarket taking advantage of the unknowing conusmer. The Cooper S showroom-stock fuel system is perfectly capable up to, in my dyno-proven experience, about 216 crank HP [SAE]. Dinan is claiming that "205" is too much, and that it's not the injectors that are the limitation, but the fuel pressure regulator! How absurd! The injectors become the bottleneck at the 216 crank HP I mentioned above, NOT the FPR. Furthermore, many high powered MINI's on this forum know that the fuel pump and regulator is acceptable to about 400 crank HP. Why Dinan's "testing" has such wildly rediculous conclusions is embarassing for them.

A company with such gross negligence for engineering and willingness to use that negligence to take advantage of consumers ought not to be trusted for anything they claim.

 

Has anyone else noticed that the vendors who would like to sell you these crankshaft pulleys are among their loudest defenders?

In any case, in spite of the opinions of those who have no hard data, no inside information, and who weren't there at the meetings when engineering decisions were being made at MINI, the engineers did decide to put a more-costly damped pulley on the engine.

There was probably a good reason whey they chose to do so, but any speculation on their reasons is just that - unsupported wishful thinking.

In any case, it is clear that in the opinion of many automotive engineers, he who puts an undamped pulley on his engine is taking a large risk for a potential benefit of a couple of horses - not a really smart thing to do...

 

I don't appreciate your attempt to discredit me. Me hearing the information from the proverbial horses mouth is about as accredited as information gets in the OEM prototyping world. I'm not speculating anything. If you choose to not believe me, that's your own stubbornness. Your honest opinion is duly noted.

 

Did they mention in the "white paper" why dealers are quitting on the "Dinan for Mini" products because of too many problems...... I know Global imports won't say anything publically but they have had a "lot" of problems with the Dinan Mini kits. Dinan also publishes that it's air intake puts out the most power...I can tell you it doesn't......

Ryan/Rhyphile told me at the Dragon last year that living in Detroit he has spoken with the engineers of our engine and that it was run for... I can't remember the amount of time....significant without anything on the crank.....no problems..... what is so stupid is that these "vibrations" can be measured and failure algos an be applied.....how do you think they analyze turbofans and other high precision rotating machines.... but the engineers don't publish this..... the truth is is that our engine gets O respect or our cars for that matter.... the P is BMWs best effort at a performance car....give me a break.....it's about units and $...... at least Ford went to LeMans when they were on top.....I thought we beat this to death a while ago.... Tuls.... if I was "gambling" with 340 whp I would not f*** with a crank pulley either.....what do the conservatives at BMW/Mini say about that?..... I know....your balanced crank pulley will save you.... I'm a tad cranky this morning....have a nice day