Drivetrain APEXi S-AFC
#51
01-20-2005, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MiniPilo
Basically they are just including the directions for Euro Vehicles. Not much else different. to my knowledge....
And "special AFM maps for Euro cars," whatever that means....
Either way, I figure this was a better deal than installing the S-AFC II I have currently. Its already been boxed up and returned to the distributor, and one of the 40 Select models they are receiving will be coming my way as soon as they get them in!
Its good for publicity too - I've told some of my customers today that I was getting the new special model A'PEXi S-AFC II and they were all in shock, heh....
too bad all of them present at the time drive Japanese imports - needless to say, they weren't all that impressed when they found out the Select model is for Euro cars only!Now if only I could get the wiring diagram for the Auto Timer.... hey!! we should petition for A'PEXi to make a batch of Select Auto Timer ignition harnesses.........
no cutting and splicing the ignition wires!!
#52
02-01-2005, 02:38 PM
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I am getting excited about the upcoming purchase, but then again, I am having doubts. These doubts are causing me the need to restate my theory as to why I want to purchase the S-AFC II Select over the GIAC. Corrections to the following are welcomed. And jlm better have something to say to this!! :smile:
The reason why I am looking forward to the S-AFC over the GIAC is the ability to tune and retune the unit according to future modifications. From what I know about the GIAC, the unit comes pre-tuned because it is a chip - "got me a Chip for it" (just like a Mustang-owner in the South would say) - which is "tuned" for a 15% pulley upgrade and bigger injectors, nothing more. The S-AFC would allow me the ability to set air / fuel correction according to the modifications _I_ have, not the simple pulley & injector upgrade half the MCS owners have (no offense).
Any future modifications to the motor can be dialed in, though I assume not nearly as accurately as a "tunable" GIAC as they offer the Mobile tuning something or other.... Since this isn't Fast and the Furious, and none of us carry laptops in our cars unless going to and from work, I'll leave the "laptop tuning" idea out of the picture. The benefit of the S-AFC is that it can be easily accessed and the two loaded maps can be changed fairly quickly vs. connecting a laptop booting up, opening up a program, and changing settings.
As far as the ability of the S-AFC, is there any reason to believe that someone with the plan to stay UNDER 300hp would be "limited" by such a unit? Is there a better, cheaper, easier, etc. way to perform ECU tuning with my goals and preferences in mind? I can't come up with one, I'd like to hear what anyone else thinks about this.
The other reason I am bringing this up again is because I will be purchasing a set of injectors in the next week or so to prepare for the dyno tuning, which will be followed up after the prototype header and exhaust (exhaust at minimum, header might be a later project) commences around the middle of the month. I'll also have all the intake-side of the motor dismantled and cool chromed. Future plans, before the first week of May - anyone catch my drift as to why I want all this done before then? - will be to upgrade all things spark, plugs, wires, and distributor.
Of course, before then I'll have to work on the brakes since both the Lord and that 11 mile stretch of road know I'll need them after all this!!!
The reason why I am looking forward to the S-AFC over the GIAC is the ability to tune and retune the unit according to future modifications. From what I know about the GIAC, the unit comes pre-tuned because it is a chip - "got me a Chip for it" (just like a Mustang-owner in the South would say) - which is "tuned" for a 15% pulley upgrade and bigger injectors, nothing more. The S-AFC would allow me the ability to set air / fuel correction according to the modifications _I_ have, not the simple pulley & injector upgrade half the MCS owners have (no offense).
Any future modifications to the motor can be dialed in, though I assume not nearly as accurately as a "tunable" GIAC as they offer the Mobile tuning something or other.... Since this isn't Fast and the Furious, and none of us carry laptops in our cars unless going to and from work, I'll leave the "laptop tuning" idea out of the picture. The benefit of the S-AFC is that it can be easily accessed and the two loaded maps can be changed fairly quickly vs. connecting a laptop booting up, opening up a program, and changing settings.
As far as the ability of the S-AFC, is there any reason to believe that someone with the plan to stay UNDER 300hp would be "limited" by such a unit? Is there a better, cheaper, easier, etc. way to perform ECU tuning with my goals and preferences in mind? I can't come up with one, I'd like to hear what anyone else thinks about this.
The other reason I am bringing this up again is because I will be purchasing a set of injectors in the next week or so to prepare for the dyno tuning, which will be followed up after the prototype header and exhaust (exhaust at minimum, header might be a later project) commences around the middle of the month. I'll also have all the intake-side of the motor dismantled and cool chromed. Future plans, before the first week of May - anyone catch my drift as to why I want all this done before then? - will be to upgrade all things spark, plugs, wires, and distributor.
Of course, before then I'll have to work on the brakes since both the Lord and that 11 mile stretch of road know I'll need them after all this!!!
#53
02-01-2005, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FastLaneTuning
I am getting excited about the upcoming purchase, but then again, I am having doubts. These doubts are causing me the need to restate my theory as to why I want to purchase the S-AFC II Select over the GIAC. Corrections to the following are welcomed. And jlm better have something to say to this!! :smile:
The reason why I am looking forward to the S-AFC over the GIAC is the ability to tune and retune the unit according to future modifications. From what I know about the GIAC, the unit comes pre-tuned because it is a chip - "got me a Chip for it" (just like a Mustang-owner in the South would say) - which is "tuned" for a 15% pulley upgrade and bigger injectors, nothing more. The S-AFC would allow me the ability to set air / fuel correction according to the modifications _I_ have, not the simple pulley & injector upgrade half the MCS owners have (no offense).
Any future modifications to the motor can be dialed in, though I assume not nearly as accurately as a "tunable" GIAC as they offer the Mobile tuning something or other.... Since this isn't Fast and the Furious, and none of us carry laptops in our cars unless going to and from work, I'll leave the "laptop tuning" idea out of the picture. The benefit of the S-AFC is that it can be easily accessed and the two loaded maps can be changed fairly quickly vs. connecting a laptop booting up, opening up a program, and changing settings.
As far as the ability of the S-AFC, is there any reason to believe that someone with the plan to stay UNDER 300hp would be "limited" by such a unit? Is there a better, cheaper, easier, etc. way to perform ECU tuning with my goals and preferences in mind? I can't come up with one, I'd like to hear what anyone else thinks about this.
The other reason I am bringing this up again is because I will be purchasing a set of injectors in the next week or so to prepare for the dyno tuning, which will be followed up after the prototype header and exhaust (exhaust at minimum, header might be a later project) commences around the middle of the month. I'll also have all the intake-side of the motor dismantled and cool chromed. Future plans, before the first week of May - anyone catch my drift as to why I want all this done before then? - will be to upgrade all things spark, plugs, wires, and distributor.
Of course, before then I'll have to work on the brakes since both the Lord and that 11 mile stretch of road know I'll need them after all this!!!
The reason why I am looking forward to the S-AFC over the GIAC is the ability to tune and retune the unit according to future modifications. From what I know about the GIAC, the unit comes pre-tuned because it is a chip - "got me a Chip for it" (just like a Mustang-owner in the South would say) - which is "tuned" for a 15% pulley upgrade and bigger injectors, nothing more. The S-AFC would allow me the ability to set air / fuel correction according to the modifications _I_ have, not the simple pulley & injector upgrade half the MCS owners have (no offense).
Any future modifications to the motor can be dialed in, though I assume not nearly as accurately as a "tunable" GIAC as they offer the Mobile tuning something or other.... Since this isn't Fast and the Furious, and none of us carry laptops in our cars unless going to and from work, I'll leave the "laptop tuning" idea out of the picture. The benefit of the S-AFC is that it can be easily accessed and the two loaded maps can be changed fairly quickly vs. connecting a laptop booting up, opening up a program, and changing settings.
As far as the ability of the S-AFC, is there any reason to believe that someone with the plan to stay UNDER 300hp would be "limited" by such a unit? Is there a better, cheaper, easier, etc. way to perform ECU tuning with my goals and preferences in mind? I can't come up with one, I'd like to hear what anyone else thinks about this.
The other reason I am bringing this up again is because I will be purchasing a set of injectors in the next week or so to prepare for the dyno tuning, which will be followed up after the prototype header and exhaust (exhaust at minimum, header might be a later project) commences around the middle of the month. I'll also have all the intake-side of the motor dismantled and cool chromed. Future plans, before the first week of May - anyone catch my drift as to why I want all this done before then? - will be to upgrade all things spark, plugs, wires, and distributor.
Of course, before then I'll have to work on the brakes since both the Lord and that 11 mile stretch of road know I'll need them after all this!!!
#54
02-01-2005, 03:16 PM
since you ask...
one thing you must have is a wideband O2 sensor which works most accurately if fitted into a threaded bung just before the cat.
mine has worked flawlessly for almost a year now.
there are a few wrinkles perhaps attributable to monkeying around with the ECU harness. Both Hubie and I experienced weird cooling fan issues. His started right away, mine after several months. In Hubie's case, he couldn't get the fan to shut off without pulling a relay, evena fter the car was off and the 5 min timer had timed out. In my case, both high and low speed stay active whenever the motor is running. I pulled the 50 amp fuse to shut down the high speed fan circuit, but even in this 20 degree weather, my fan runs on low speed. Hubie solved his problem by bypassing the fan circuit with an aftermarket relay (as I recall), mine is still *****.
one thing you must have is a wideband O2 sensor which works most accurately if fitted into a threaded bung just before the cat.
mine has worked flawlessly for almost a year now.
there are a few wrinkles perhaps attributable to monkeying around with the ECU harness. Both Hubie and I experienced weird cooling fan issues. His started right away, mine after several months. In Hubie's case, he couldn't get the fan to shut off without pulling a relay, evena fter the car was off and the 5 min timer had timed out. In my case, both high and low speed stay active whenever the motor is running. I pulled the 50 amp fuse to shut down the high speed fan circuit, but even in this 20 degree weather, my fan runs on low speed. Hubie solved his problem by bypassing the fan circuit with an aftermarket relay (as I recall), mine is still *****.
Last edited by jlm; 02-02-2005 at 03:54 AM.
#55
02-02-2005, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jlm
since you ask...
one thing you must have is a wideband O2 sensor which works most accurately if fitted into a threaded bung just after the cat.
one thing you must have is a wideband O2 sensor which works most accurately if fitted into a threaded bung just after the cat.
#57
02-02-2005, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jlm
there are a few wrinkles perhaps attributable to monkeying around with the ECU harness. Both Hubie and I experienced weird cooling fan issues.
Could this issue possibly be attributed to the fact that the S-AFC II model designed for Japanese imports never came with a "real" wiring diagram, those who installed it had to "find" the right places to wire it in to the ECU, and was never meant to be installed on the MCS in the first place? Is it possible that the S-AFC II Select may have thought about this issue as it had to have been installed on an MCS for them to produce a "correct" wiring diagram displayed in the installation manual?
Do you know if the wiring diagram produced in the manual, displayed on the first page of this thread, is IDENTICAL to the way the both of yours (Hubie and jlm) was installed? There's only two ways to look at this, and if I can eliminate one of the two - wiring - I will be able to determine if the second factor - Select model - may remedy the fan issue.
Of course, in any case, it can be corrected as you described with a relay as we have had to do in the past with aftermarket ECU's being installed on the Mazda RX7's we have worked on.
#58
02-02-2005, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by FastLaneTuning
It never hurts to ask, so....
Could this issue possibly be attributed to the fact that the S-AFC II model designed for Japanese imports never came with a "real" wiring diagram, those who installed it had to "find" the right places to wire it in to the ECU, and was never meant to be installed on the MCS in the first place? Is it possible that the S-AFC II Select may have thought about this issue as it had to have been installed on an MCS for them to produce a "correct" wiring diagram displayed in the installation manual?
Do you know if the wiring diagram produced in the manual, displayed on the first page of this thread, is IDENTICAL to the way the both of yours (Hubie and jlm) was installed? There's only two ways to look at this, and if I can eliminate one of the two - wiring - I will be able to determine if the second factor - Select model - may remedy the fan issue.
Of course, in any case, it can be corrected as you described with a relay as we have had to do in the past with aftermarket ECU's being installed on the Mazda RX7's we have worked on.
Could this issue possibly be attributed to the fact that the S-AFC II model designed for Japanese imports never came with a "real" wiring diagram, those who installed it had to "find" the right places to wire it in to the ECU, and was never meant to be installed on the MCS in the first place? Is it possible that the S-AFC II Select may have thought about this issue as it had to have been installed on an MCS for them to produce a "correct" wiring diagram displayed in the installation manual?
Do you know if the wiring diagram produced in the manual, displayed on the first page of this thread, is IDENTICAL to the way the both of yours (Hubie and jlm) was installed? There's only two ways to look at this, and if I can eliminate one of the two - wiring - I will be able to determine if the second factor - Select model - may remedy the fan issue.
Of course, in any case, it can be corrected as you described with a relay as we have had to do in the past with aftermarket ECU's being installed on the Mazda RX7's we have worked on.
#60
02-02-2005, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jlm
the fan is controlled by the ecu based on a variety of measures and conditions
#61
02-02-2005, 11:02 AM
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This goes back to earlier discussions about the problems with band-aids (like the AFC and Unichip) compared to proper ECU tuning. When you start intercepting and corrupting signals between the ECU and its sensors, all sorts of bad things can start happening. For example, the Unichip alters the signal from the crank position sensor to fool the ECU into advancing or retarding the ignition timing. Well, the ECU happens to be monitoring the speed of the crank very carefully at specific positions to check for misfires. If the Unichip shifts the signal too far, the ECU may thing there is a misfire even if there isn't. To compound the possible problems, once you start sending false signals to the ECU, diagnostic readings are no longer reliable since the ECU does not have an accurate picture of its surroundings.
The APEXi S-AFC is intercepting the MAP sensor signal to the ECU, telling it that boost is lower or higher than reality. The ECU then sends the "incorrect" injection signals to the injectors. Not the right way to go, IMHO.
The APEXi S-AFC is intercepting the MAP sensor signal to the ECU, telling it that boost is lower or higher than reality. The ECU then sends the "incorrect" injection signals to the injectors. Not the right way to go, IMHO.
#62
02-02-2005, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by andy@ross-tech.com
This goes back to earlier discussions about the problems with band-aids (like the AFC and Unichip) compared to proper ECU tuning. When you start intercepting and corrupting signals between the ECU and its sensors, all sorts of bad things can start happening. For example, the Unichip alters the signal from the crank position sensor to fool the ECU into advancing or retarding the ignition timing. Well, the ECU happens to be monitoring the speed of the crank very carefully at specific positions to check for misfires. If the Unichip shifts the signal too far, the ECU may thing there is a misfire even if there isn't. To compound the possible problems, once you start sending false signals to the ECU, diagnostic readings are no longer reliable since the ECU does not have an accurate picture of its surroundings.
The APEXi S-AFC is intercepting the MAP sensor signal to the ECU, telling it that boost is lower or higher than reality. The ECU then sends the "incorrect" injection signals to the injectors. Not the right way to go, IMHO.
The APEXi S-AFC is intercepting the MAP sensor signal to the ECU, telling it that boost is lower or higher than reality. The ECU then sends the "incorrect" injection signals to the injectors. Not the right way to go, IMHO.
#63
02-02-2005, 11:37 AM
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#64
02-02-2005, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by andy@ross-tech.com
I'm not sure why that would happen either. It may be a good idea to completely remove the piggyback to see if the problem is even related.
#65
02-02-2005, 12:23 PM
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#66
02-02-2005, 01:35 PM
I have found Myself to be totally confused by the fan issue; I know Hubie lost some hair over it as well. I have had no codes adn the problem started 6 months after installing the Apexi. Hubie had his problem right away.
from what I can tell, the fan comes on low when the coolant temp reaches 221F, then comes on high with ECT at 234F. And/or, boolean-speak, if the refrigerant pressure is 8 bar also low fan, 18 bar, high fan.
from what I can tell, the fan comes on low when the coolant temp reaches 221F, then comes on high with ECT at 234F. And/or, boolean-speak, if the refrigerant pressure is 8 bar also low fan, 18 bar, high fan.
#67
02-03-2005, 08:42 AM
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no fan issues as of yet.. but then im not running as big of injectors as you guys. there for im not altering the signal as much. With the stock injectors most ive done was a + - 7% to get the performace i was looking for. With the JCW 380 injectors i went to max of -15% to get 12.5 a/f. Still have to hit the dyno now that i have the MTH programming back in it for a final run. Other thing i havent fooled with is the Lo-Throttle setting since unlike JLM i dont have a A/F gauge on the car(yet) to try and tune it. There for pretty much unless im at or near WOT the signal doesnt change at all.
#68
02-03-2005, 08:48 AM
E-manage
Originally Posted by bhcvc
Another option to look into would be the Greddy E-Manage as it has a much higher resolution map for fuel and ignition timing when used w/ a laptop. Most ppl like the A'pex S-AFC cuz it's prettier w/ the display, but I personally believe the Greddy E-Manage is more powerful.
A friend of mine in FL used an E-manage to tune a turbocharged mini cooper S(supercharger was removed in favor of turbo) and allegedly got over 300whp with a T3/T4 style turbo. The ECU was left alone. The E-manage is a very capable unit that is fairly easy to use. The car was also tuned on the street and not a dyno, making it even more impressive.
#69
02-03-2005, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by MassMiniac
-manage
A friend of mine in FL used an E-manage to tune a turbocharged mini cooper S(supercharger was removed in favor of turbo) and allegedly got over 300whp with a T3/T4 style turbo. The ECU was left alone. The E-manage is a very capable unit that is fairly easy to use. The car was also tuned on the street and not a dyno, making it even more impressive.
A friend of mine in FL used an E-manage to tune a turbocharged mini cooper S(supercharger was removed in favor of turbo) and allegedly got over 300whp with a T3/T4 style turbo. The ECU was left alone. The E-manage is a very capable unit that is fairly easy to use. The car was also tuned on the street and not a dyno, making it even more impressive.
-shenmue2
#70
02-04-2005, 03:48 PM
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The GReddy eManage system is fairly easy to use.... on TURBO vehicles. We gauge our customer's intentions with their cars - if they want simple fuel correction and basic upgrades, A'PEXi S-AFC II is the way to go. if they want complete control, duty cycle configuration, ability to manipulate air / fuel maps on a laptop, etc. then use the GReddy....
GReddy is a little bit much on a supercharged car like the MINI. I can't see using the GReddy unit on my car, or anyone's car without a turbo, as there are dozens of turbo-only related settings that cannot be changed unless you want to have a see-through head on your motor.... the ability to even install it on an S/C car would astound me!
GReddy is a little bit much on a supercharged car like the MINI. I can't see using the GReddy unit on my car, or anyone's car without a turbo, as there are dozens of turbo-only related settings that cannot be changed unless you want to have a see-through head on your motor.... the ability to even install it on an S/C car would astound me!
#71
02-04-2005, 09:26 PM
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#73
02-16-2005, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by S1monLM
Does anyone has the part number?
http://www.tunerzine.com/articles/20...o/article.html
S-AFC II Select (European model) Product Code: 401-X903
#74
02-16-2005, 10:44 AM
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#75
02-17-2005, 12:30 AM
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okay, its WAY too late right now to format all my pictures, but i'll give you a teaser picture of the AFC Select and my next project i'll be working on....
more pics and a write up with the REAL way to install this unit, along with a full installation guide and color coded wiring diagram (not the simple pin-out as displayed before on this thread - matching colors so you don't have to pull off the individual ECU wire covers) coming as soon as i have 10 mins to myself again....
enjoy!
more pics and a write up with the REAL way to install this unit, along with a full installation guide and color coded wiring diagram (not the simple pin-out as displayed before on this thread - matching colors so you don't have to pull off the individual ECU wire covers) coming as soon as i have 10 mins to myself again....
enjoy!