Yes, those are the three correct processes involved.

I once made the silly mistake of mistyping about IC cooling being by evaporation [brain fart] and Andy has never let me move on, even after correcting myself when I noticed the error, so I know this one quite well!

Anyways, the interesting thing about sweating [on your body!] is that most of the cooling is not be evaporation, but by convection [that is, air flying over it, everyone]. The water only serves to increase surface area and speed of heat conduction. So, yeah, it's just about exactly the same as cooling by our intercoolers [by air flow over a conductive surface!].

 

some differing opinions from the above about evaporative cooling and sweat:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...rmo/sweat.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling_by_Evaporation
http://cankar.org/sauna/health/evaporation.html

 

I left off evaporation as one of the 4 because i did not see the relevance but that may be my ignorance..... alas... no medical degree. It just seems to me that we are getting air in and heating it and making an oven with not much provision for escape......am i seeing this wrong?

 

I was disputing this nugget from the medically trained one: "The water only serves to increase surface area and speed of heat conduction."

as far as the intercooler, the water mister by alta might add some evaporative cooling, notwithstanding that, airflow through the fins picks up heat by conduction (molecule-to-molecule contact; that is air to aluminum fin) and carries it away, assuming the air can move.

there was an old dispute where Ing was convinced the intercooler was a heat sink, but that was mostly semantic, although a classic: start at about post 50, move through the "gibberish..." comment and the "trust me, I know what I am talking about" throuhg about post 90.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...light=heatsink

 

Evaporation happens for sure, BUT let's think about this for a second: what is the vapor pressure of water at outside temperatures [or even at the surface of our bodies], when we're sweating? It is not high enough to en masse evaporate off water- a small proportion will vaporize, but not the majority of it. So, truthfully, the majority of cooling is not due to evaporation. I could give you texts to prove my point, but this is not on topic. If you'd like to hear more, feel free to pm me.

 

Sorry, but unless you have a phase change, evaporation doesn't take place. Nor is it a true statement that our intercoolers operate via air flowing over, but not through them. Likewise, we don't have bias ply tires on our cars, stronger valve springs don't make our valves open faster, and the intercooler is not located directly over the cylinder head. If you'd like to argue any of the above nonsensical theories that you have spouted, maybe you should start a new thread called "How the MCS doesn't operate".

 

Ya know, if air did flow through our intercoolers to cool the air, um, flowing through the intercooler, then you wouldn't have any boost, because it wouldn't be an enclosed system....

Not to mention you'd be violating all sorts of laws of Physics...

Intercoolers operate by air flowing over, not through, the surfaces of the intercooler, like the fins.

So you're both wrong.

 

Ummm ... ambient air does flow through the intercooler. It has one path from outside the car to inside the engine bay. Perpendicular to this path is the charge air, which also flows through the intercooler.

 

Oh, very true, as I stated. However, if the charge air is all you are talking about, well, it's not really an intercooler, then is it? It's just a tube. The air that cools, and makes it an intercooler, doesn't flow through the surfaces, it flows over the surfaces. Hundreds and hundreds of surfaces...

I'm just give you guys a hard time about your semantics, anyway.

 

You just love staying on topic. I said I would gladly take comments by pm. BUT, you are wrong. Evaporation and phase change are constantly happening with any fluid surface. Notice how your ice cubes get smaller in the freezer, Mr. "Scientist?" Even at freezing temps, water evaporates. This is entropy! Evaporation just isn't the overwhelming process until your vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure- boiling point.

If you want your own thread, go to off topic, please.

PS: I have checked the seal between my intercooler cover and the hood, and there is pressure loss- water freely passes through. How much, well that is apparently a question for the ages . I am not an expert on cars, yet!, nor do I claim to be. This is my first car. But, please don't question my scientific background. I have been at that for a lot longer.

PPS: Yes, I would love to pm this to Andy, but he keeps his box conveniently full.

 

wtf, ing, it was your bs about making a mistake about IC cooling and sweat evap that started this, that led to spider's remark about evap cooling for the IC. exactly what is the topic, in your mind?

bythe way, the links provided seem to claim that sweat evaporation is a major factor in body cooling.

 

This thread is about Alta's intecooler. No amount of cursing, insults, or related nonsense belongs here. Only responses which regard the IC or directly related thereto, belong here. I did not say anything about the IC cooling by evaporating, here. Read my post, again. . Btw, "A major" does not mean "the biggest"- body physiology is complicated, and I included evaporation as a factor . Of course, Mr. Andy doesn't think evaporation happens when sweating . Fairly good link: http://www.vnh.org/HeatIllness/adapheat.html. Excerpt:

"Maintenance of body temperature requires that the amount of heat energy in the body remains constant. Under circumstances when internal heat production exceeds the capacity of direct routes of heat transfer to dissipate it, an additional means of heat transfer, evaporation of sweat, comes into play. Furthermore, when the environment is sufficiently hot to cause heat gain by the direct transfer routes, evaporative cooling is the only thermoregulatory mechanism available to control body temperature."

This shall be my second and final invitation: if you wish, my inbox is open until it's full. And, I actually write people back.

The fact remains, our intercoolers cool by air flow over a surface which is heated by the intake charge. They cool by convection.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_%28physics%29

Back on topic, I hope to get a chance to do some preliminary testing this weekend.

 

You were right, Spider, but at 6:24 or whatever in the morning I didn't complete my thought. I wished first to say that you were right with those three. I then hoped to make light of it by pointing out an error on my part ages ago. But, I neglected to do so at that early hour. I will edit my post now to account for the intentioned meaning. Again, sorry.

 

Try going outside in winter all wet and see if you're not colder

 

Elegant! I wanna be like MSFITOY!

 

what he said.

 

SpiderX,
The fan idea is something we could try but more like a last resort. I think the fans will flow enough air for cruising and idle, but above 50, i think the outside air will be going faster than the fans. But who knows something to test.

JLM,
Yes, on the charge air side it is better by quite a bit. One of the reasons why, if it cools good enough, it will make more power with less pressure drop. On the ambient side no. But since the air is going through it more directly, it may offset the larger surface air of a normal TMIC. With a normal topmount, the air flow wants to go through the back more than the front, making it less efficient. So with this the back side will not be gettting the same cooling as the front, so it should work as good as the stock one for cooling. Again who knows for sure, just ideas.

Dr Obnxs,
1) That is a given. For this test there will be some duct tape used just to help with that.
2) That doesn't matter that much at all. In fact that is one of the inheirent benifits of bar and plate. The air passing through the core only has to do a 90 degree turn(at the most) to make it from the tanks to the core. On tube and fin, the air has to do 2 180's (at the most) to get through the core. But even this drastic air flow change doesn't effect flow much. This is something proven with T&F vs. B&P, but B&P still cools better. But to make you feel better, like our other cores, the casting is thick enough that it only leaves a very small edge.
3)Sounds like a good idea, but i don't know how much it will help. With other TMIC's the heat soaking is only an issue when the car is stopped. When moving is doesn't make a difference. But if one of those foil covered fiberglass sheets helps with cooling a few degrees, then it will be added.
5)It has been done before with other coolers but i don't think it helped. Yes if this was an intake system (no boost) and this was what the engine would have to suck through the IC, then it would absolutely help. But with boost things like that don't matter much at all. On a flow bench yes (vacuum) but in really life no. That is why on a turbo car, head work doesn't make as much difference as on an NA car. To give you an idea, we had our older WRX FMIC's which used sheetmetal tanks with bad corners and sharp angles. When we used cast tanks, no bad corners or any sharp angles the WHP we saw was about 3-5 WHP diffferent (which was even hard to proove) so it was less than a 1% gain.(this was also a high HP car where it would make the most difference)
a) Yup, but the water still goes through it pretty far heating up more at the back. Yes the water still sucks up more than air, but they still use these large cores that the "back half" may not be working as well at the front half. Same as this core, and somewhat the same as the stock core.
b) Ya, i have read those things also, and i don't belive it. Yes, it is calculatable but there is no way that it works in boosted situations. Example WRX TMIC and FMIC. The upgraded WRX TMICs have basically 3 90 degree turns to the Thottle body. They make 300 WHP with X turbo. Same car, setup with an FMIC, 11 90 degree turns to the throttle body, make more HP. Its not making 45% more power because the turbo only pushes X amount of air. It is making more HP because of cool air temps which allow for more timing to be added making more HP. On a flow bench the TMIC should be better but it isn't. If fact the charge air enterence on the TMIC is more that twice that of the FMIC core. That alone makes the TMIC much less restrictive. But they never make the same HP as the FMIC. Also we are not talking about 20+ degree cooler air, maybe 10 degrees. I think boost plays a big role. It makes all the head porting techniques for increasing flow less effective. Now Cams that is where power can be had!

Samurai Will,
Wow, i thought you were completely nuts there for a second! Funny!

If nothing else, this IC will be perfect for WI!

That turned into a long one.

 

Not the first time I've head that one!

 

Then you wouldn't be as smart as you are now

 

No but I noticed that as well . I think recoop gave me that name for some reason. William to be exact

 

these speak volumes:
"Anyways, the interesting thing about sweating [on your body!] is that most of the cooling is not be evaporation, but by convection [that is, air flying over it, everyone]. The water only serves to increase surface area and speed of heat conduction."
and:
"This thread is about Alta's intecooler. No amount of cursing, insults, or related nonsense belongs here. Only responses which regard the IC or directly related thereto, belong here."

 

So lets see if I have this right - If I put a big fat sweaty guy on top of my IC, I'll get more HP? .

Back on topic - I'm a little concerned about testing up North in the winter but I guess deltas are deltas. I think we should all pinch in for gas money and Andy should drive down to Florida to conclude the test.

Happy Xmas Testing, Andy. Looking forward to readying your findings.

 

Maybe we should get a little extra $$$$ and also have him do a track day to see what happens there.

 

Or better yet, the Bahamas!