Drivetrain New Larger Alta Intercooler!!!
Dr Obnxs' Prediction....
Worse... And here's why...
In the stock form, air travels less than 2" across the IC, and after 2" of motion, the air is heated alot (that's what makes it work). In this new design, the cool air entering the front will be heated as it travels through the IC, and with the longer path, it will be much hotter when it gets to the back of the IC, 8-10 inches away. So the cooling of the air charge at the back of the IC will be much less efficient, because the temp difference between the air cooling the IC and the IC will be much less. That's why almost all ICs you ever will see are thin in the direction of the cooling air.
Countering this is the increased volume of the IC, allowing for less pressure drop (good thing) and slower charge velocity through the IC (residency time in the IC). also a good thing. There's also the potential to flow more air in through a modified scoop, but as these parts (scoop for this IC and appropriate diverter), it will be dificult to take advantange of this without more engineering.
The math here is messy, and isn't easy without lots of assumptions that may not really reflect reality.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the numbers, and I hope to be proved wrong.
Matt
In the stock form, air travels less than 2" across the IC, and after 2" of motion, the air is heated alot (that's what makes it work). In this new design, the cool air entering the front will be heated as it travels through the IC, and with the longer path, it will be much hotter when it gets to the back of the IC, 8-10 inches away. So the cooling of the air charge at the back of the IC will be much less efficient, because the temp difference between the air cooling the IC and the IC will be much less. That's why almost all ICs you ever will see are thin in the direction of the cooling air.
Countering this is the increased volume of the IC, allowing for less pressure drop (good thing) and slower charge velocity through the IC (residency time in the IC). also a good thing. There's also the potential to flow more air in through a modified scoop, but as these parts (scoop for this IC and appropriate diverter), it will be dificult to take advantange of this without more engineering.
The math here is messy, and isn't easy without lots of assumptions that may not really reflect reality.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the numbers, and I hope to be proved wrong.
Matt
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From: Oregon
Lots of good ideas and thoughts, and most of them are the same as ours. All of which will be proven, good or bad very soon.
The shroud goes hand in hand with the IC. There is no way we would build this with out a shroud. The shroud will go around the IC will of course fit to the scoop tightly, and direct all the air through the core. That is a given, just not something we have built. And to tell you the truth, we are not going to build something crazy until we make sure it does what we think it will.
The fans are a great idea, but i would build these into the part after we prove it is close to what we want. I wouldn't want to rely on the fans to do the main portion of the work. But none the less a great idea.
Have other cars done this? Well yes and no. The SRT-4, EVO... and most other TC cars, have IC's that are in the front of the car. So it is natural to use the proper thin type core. It does work better, provides more cooling surface better ambient flow...... The STI TMIC has the scoop which directs flow down through the IC, so making ti flow different here isn't necessary. but a 4.5" thick core here works just fine. A couple thicker ones built only proved it worked that much better. But yes the thicker the core, the less the ambient will be cooling at the back of it. But so does the stock IC. I dont' think that there is much cooling going on toward the front. If we are comparing other cars, The supra is a good one. Since they have a small opening for the IC, many of them use really thick cores to get the volume up. They are short, long and thick.
If we look at some of the Water to Air IC's used in drag racing, they are very very thick. In fact many are 12" thick! They have water flowing through them, but still the water flows one direction, and by the time it gets to the back, it also isn't cooling as well. Yes its a drag car but just another vehicle to compare to.
We thought about tilting our larger IC, to help with air flow out from under it. but in the end, it doesn't improve the charge air flow. Just cooling. And we have already proven that it cools just fine, but the charge air flow could use some help.
It all comes down to the temp drop. We already know the pressure drop is going to be less (about 50%) which will make more power, but the air temp change is what we are interested in.
Propaganda is what it is, but i don't really appriciate the BOLDING of us saying "will be", "prototype", "planning on", "testing", "coming out" and so on. If our post was just words to make us LOOK like we were trying keep up with other vendors there wouldn't be a picture of it. The fact is that we have been working on this for a while. It wasn't just thrown together with out a diverter in mind. The diverter we might show you will not be the same as the fianl part. Whenver you design and test things sometimes things are done functional to prove the idea/design then done pretty. There is no need to spend hours and hours on something like that just for a test. Test with simple things that function first. This is the smart and efficeint way to build parts. But it seems like you also know what you are talking about so you should understand this.
With some things that were said on another thread we didn't want to NOT mention anything until we were done, do to the communitiy thinking we just copied someone elses design. We don't even know what kind or design of IC was being thought of, but it would make us look pretty bad to have months of talk of another vendor coming out with a new design then us beating them to the punch. We decided to mention our design now for that reason. We didn't do this to say Na na na na na, we are not hear to beat down vendors. We all get along, and we like to keep it that way. I know Peter wouldn't be here saying that. In fact i think it would be kind of nice to see ALTA and M7 talk about their IC from conception to final design, with testing along the way. It does nothing but help both of us out. Just like the AGS, i am sure M7 sells tons of intakes from the press it got even though it wasn't the top HP intake. Everones parts fit some perticular customers needs. So yes, this is not finished, we are not hiding that fact.
One of the other things we are doing with helping the IC get more Air is modifying the scoop. The scoop will be trimmed (note the picture) back on the bottom to allow more air to enter the IC. This picture doens't have any diverter on it, but it WILL!
Looks wasn't our first intention, but it does look pretty mean throught the scoop!
The shroud goes hand in hand with the IC. There is no way we would build this with out a shroud. The shroud will go around the IC will of course fit to the scoop tightly, and direct all the air through the core. That is a given, just not something we have built. And to tell you the truth, we are not going to build something crazy until we make sure it does what we think it will.
The fans are a great idea, but i would build these into the part after we prove it is close to what we want. I wouldn't want to rely on the fans to do the main portion of the work. But none the less a great idea.
Have other cars done this? Well yes and no. The SRT-4, EVO... and most other TC cars, have IC's that are in the front of the car. So it is natural to use the proper thin type core. It does work better, provides more cooling surface better ambient flow...... The STI TMIC has the scoop which directs flow down through the IC, so making ti flow different here isn't necessary. but a 4.5" thick core here works just fine. A couple thicker ones built only proved it worked that much better. But yes the thicker the core, the less the ambient will be cooling at the back of it. But so does the stock IC. I dont' think that there is much cooling going on toward the front. If we are comparing other cars, The supra is a good one. Since they have a small opening for the IC, many of them use really thick cores to get the volume up. They are short, long and thick.
If we look at some of the Water to Air IC's used in drag racing, they are very very thick. In fact many are 12" thick! They have water flowing through them, but still the water flows one direction, and by the time it gets to the back, it also isn't cooling as well. Yes its a drag car but just another vehicle to compare to.
We thought about tilting our larger IC, to help with air flow out from under it. but in the end, it doesn't improve the charge air flow. Just cooling. And we have already proven that it cools just fine, but the charge air flow could use some help.
It all comes down to the temp drop. We already know the pressure drop is going to be less (about 50%) which will make more power, but the air temp change is what we are interested in.
Propaganda is what it is, but i don't really appriciate the BOLDING of us saying "will be", "prototype", "planning on", "testing", "coming out" and so on. If our post was just words to make us LOOK like we were trying keep up with other vendors there wouldn't be a picture of it. The fact is that we have been working on this for a while. It wasn't just thrown together with out a diverter in mind. The diverter we might show you will not be the same as the fianl part. Whenver you design and test things sometimes things are done functional to prove the idea/design then done pretty. There is no need to spend hours and hours on something like that just for a test. Test with simple things that function first. This is the smart and efficeint way to build parts. But it seems like you also know what you are talking about so you should understand this.
With some things that were said on another thread we didn't want to NOT mention anything until we were done, do to the communitiy thinking we just copied someone elses design. We don't even know what kind or design of IC was being thought of, but it would make us look pretty bad to have months of talk of another vendor coming out with a new design then us beating them to the punch. We decided to mention our design now for that reason. We didn't do this to say Na na na na na, we are not hear to beat down vendors. We all get along, and we like to keep it that way. I know Peter wouldn't be here saying that. In fact i think it would be kind of nice to see ALTA and M7 talk about their IC from conception to final design, with testing along the way. It does nothing but help both of us out. Just like the AGS, i am sure M7 sells tons of intakes from the press it got even though it wasn't the top HP intake. Everones parts fit some perticular customers needs. So yes, this is not finished, we are not hiding that fact.
One of the other things we are doing with helping the IC get more Air is modifying the scoop. The scoop will be trimmed (note the picture) back on the bottom to allow more air to enter the IC. This picture doens't have any diverter on it, but it WILL!
Looks wasn't our first intention, but it does look pretty mean throught the scoop!
Jeff,
thank you for throwing yourself into the *****-storm that the inter-web car forum can be with a new product that is not tested and some what goes against traditional IC theory. It must be hard enough to take mis-informed beatings on existing finished products...Kudos to you & your team!
It does look killer sticking in the snout....it's a shame that the placement of everything doesn't allow for fins all the way across the opening! (for performance *and* looks!)
And, before anyone else asks, I was hoping to get the silicon IC connectors in Royal Grey....and will this IC void my warrantee?
-jac
thank you for throwing yourself into the *****-storm that the inter-web car forum can be with a new product that is not tested and some what goes against traditional IC theory. It must be hard enough to take mis-informed beatings on existing finished products...Kudos to you & your team!
It does look killer sticking in the snout....it's a shame that the placement of everything doesn't allow for fins all the way across the opening! (for performance *and* looks!)
And, before anyone else asks, I was hoping to get the silicon IC connectors in Royal Grey....and will this IC void my warrantee?
-jac
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 949
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From: Charlotte, NC
This definitely seems to have promise.
With a shroud/modified scoop for ram-air effect and a fan to draw air at slow speeds, getting air flow through the IC s/b quite manageable. If a bug screen could be devised w/o comprimising airflow that would be a nice feature. An integrated mister/sprayer would also be welcome.
Another idea you might consider is the use of some type of material to resist heat transfer. That might help with the underhood temps during idle & stop/go traffic.
All that said, with less pressure drop, even if the temperature drop across the core is the same as the existing alternatives, it should still make power. I look forward to hearing more.
Originally Posted by ALTA2
<snip> The shroud goes hand in hand with the IC. There is no way we would build this with out a shroud. The shroud will go around the IC will of course fit to the scoop tightly, and direct all the air through the core. That is a given, just not something we have built. And to tell you the truth, we are not going to build something crazy until we make sure it does what we think it will.
The fans are a great idea, but i would build these into the part after we prove it is close to what we want. I wouldn't want to rely on the fans to do the main portion of the work. But none the less a great idea.<snip>
The fans are a great idea, but i would build these into the part after we prove it is close to what we want. I wouldn't want to rely on the fans to do the main portion of the work. But none the less a great idea.<snip>
Originally Posted by ALTA2
<snip> It all comes down to the temp drop. We already know the pressure drop is going to be less (about 50%) which will make more power, but the air temp change is what we are interested in.<snip>
Originally Posted by ALTA2
<snip> One of the other things we are doing with helping the IC get more Air is modifying the scoop. The scoop will be trimmed (note the picture) back on the bottom to allow more air to enter the IC. This picture doens't have any diverter on it, but it WILL!<snip>
Another idea you might consider is the use of some type of material to resist heat transfer. That might help with the underhood temps during idle & stop/go traffic.
All that said, with less pressure drop, even if the temperature drop across the core is the same as the existing alternatives, it should still make power. I look forward to hearing more.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
Originally Posted by fishbulb
Jeff,
thank you for throwing yourself into the *****-storm that the inter-web car forum can be with a new product that is not tested and some what goes against traditional IC theory. It must be hard enough to take mis-informed beatings on existing finished products...Kudos to you & your team!
thank you for throwing yourself into the *****-storm that the inter-web car forum can be with a new product that is not tested and some what goes against traditional IC theory. It must be hard enough to take mis-informed beatings on existing finished products...Kudos to you & your team!
My money is on the theory. Just maybe not on the product.
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From: Oregon
eMINI,
You bring up a good point about under hood heat. The one thing with the stock IC is that with the way it sits it is horrible for heat soak. Hot air rises, and it goes right through the intercooler turning it into an interwarmer. Of course i am talking about at a standstill or really low speeds. Since the flat non-finned area is facing the engine, there will be less heat soak.
The water squirter is a no brainer with this IC also. It will be very easy to incorporate it into the shroud.
Again, it all sounds good, but the testing will show if our ideas all come together.
You bring up a good point about under hood heat. The one thing with the stock IC is that with the way it sits it is horrible for heat soak. Hot air rises, and it goes right through the intercooler turning it into an interwarmer. Of course i am talking about at a standstill or really low speeds. Since the flat non-finned area is facing the engine, there will be less heat soak.
The water squirter is a no brainer with this IC also. It will be very easy to incorporate it into the shroud.
Again, it all sounds good, but the testing will show if our ideas all come together.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 928
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From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by ingsoc
misinformed is a relative term...
My money is on the theory. Just maybe not on the product.
My money is on the theory. Just maybe not on the product.
Maybe I'm alone, but I've had enough of your "i know something you don't know" games. Say something meaningful or be quiet.
Really not surprised you and Joker know each other. Seems like the same person to me. One types, but says nothing, and the other just replies to every thread with a couple smilies.
-----------
I'll be surprised if the intercooler works out, but I'm still glad to see companies trying new things.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
Originally Posted by JeffS
Maybe I'm alone, but I've had enough of your "i know something you don't know" games. Say something meaningful or be quiet.
Really not surprised you and Joker know each other. Seems like the same person to me. One types, but says nothing, and the other just replies to every thread with a couple smilies.
-----------
I'll be surprised if the intercooler works out, but I'm still glad to see companies trying new things.
Really not surprised you and Joker know each other. Seems like the same person to me. One types, but says nothing, and the other just replies to every thread with a couple smilies.
-----------
I'll be surprised if the intercooler works out, but I'm still glad to see companies trying new things.
Joker's a cool guy, although I've never met him, and you know what? He might just be having a royal laugh at you and your reaction. There is such a thing as a social experiment
. How would you feel if you saw a ton of people getting all bent out of shape about something ultimately silly? Oh yeah.... 
:impatient The signs were there for me to infer, just as they are there for someone to see the exact opposite meaning. This is why we _post_, so that we same things DON'T get written again and again.
So, in conclusion, I still have a half of a suspicion that this was not and maybe will not be the first product to market banking on similar technology. We will see!
Oh, yeah, and check around at my posts. They're at least 50% additive
.
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From: Oregon
ingsoc,
By no means was this a post in anyway negative toward a competitor, or anything. This is a legitament project, and for a legitament reason. With that said we will continue to show our progress along the way. The prototype is shipping tomorrow to a very well known NAM enthusiest that will be giving us some data right away. It maybe good, it maybe bad, it maybe the same as our TMIC. Whatever it is the outcome will be posted here on NAM for all to see. Nothing to hide, nothing to loose.
Here is the proto diverter.
By no means was this a post in anyway negative toward a competitor, or anything. This is a legitament project, and for a legitament reason. With that said we will continue to show our progress along the way. The prototype is shipping tomorrow to a very well known NAM enthusiest that will be giving us some data right away. It maybe good, it maybe bad, it maybe the same as our TMIC. Whatever it is the outcome will be posted here on NAM for all to see. Nothing to hide, nothing to loose.
Here is the proto diverter.
Last edited by ALTA2; Dec 13, 2005 at 02:07 PM. Reason: forgot pictures
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
Alta,
Please don't take my posts personally either. I am quite excited about your forthcoming TC project and the Hydra [and so are a number of my TMMZ buds], I just found your post....interesting. Thanks, anyways, for the transparency you now seem happy to provide. I would not have reacted the same way had the most recent posts come first, is all. Keep up the innovation. [AND PLEASE RELEASE MY NEW ECU TOY ALREADY!
. I'm running 8k+ rpms right now, and so I think that well qualifies me as a daring would-be tester!!!! 
]. You know where to find me 
.
Please don't take my posts personally either. I am quite excited about your forthcoming TC project and the Hydra [and so are a number of my TMMZ buds], I just found your post....interesting. Thanks, anyways, for the transparency you now seem happy to provide. I would not have reacted the same way had the most recent posts come first, is all. Keep up the innovation. [AND PLEASE RELEASE MY NEW ECU TOY ALREADY!
. I'm running 8k+ rpms right now, and so I think that well qualifies me as a daring would-be tester!!!! ]. You know where to find me .
d0oD.!!. chillax ..
were u havin' a bad day????
..:: why is it that sooooooo many peeps on here have such a big problem w/me de 'JOkER'
BimCom isnt that Andy?
.the design l00ks on point, cant wait to see the #'sssssss
:'jeff' it appears that the cast ends are bigger, both taller & wider in all it seems to have used more of the space in between the mountin' flange and the IC it self !?!?!!?
..:: why is it that sooooooo many peeps on here have such a big problem w/me de 'JOkER'
BimCom isnt that Andy?
.the design l00ks on point
, cant wait to see the #'sssssss:'jeff' it appears that the cast ends are bigger, both taller & wider in all it seems to have used more of the space in between the mountin' flange and the IC it self !?!?!!?
Originally Posted by JeffS
Maybe I'm alone, but I've had enough of your "i know something you don't know" games. Say something meaningful or be quiet.
Really not surprised you and Joker know each other. Seems like the same person to me. One types, but says nothing, and the other just replies to every thread with a couple smilies.
-----------
I'll be surprised if the intercooler works out, but I'm still glad to see companies trying new things.
Really not surprised you and Joker know each other. Seems like the same person to me. One types, but says nothing, and the other just replies to every thread with a couple smilies.
-----------
I'll be surprised if the intercooler works out, but I'm still glad to see companies trying new things.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
Alta, got any info on weight in current spec? How much does it weigh? Difference from your top mount? How much is stock anyways [aluminum, and if my calibrated arm newtonometer was accurate, seemed about 10 pounds when I had mine off...]?
was accurate, seemed about 10 pounds when I had mine off...]?
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 949
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From: Charlotte, NC
BimCom is a good clue. If it's not Andy, who would it be?
And if you were a vendor/tuner... and you were going to have someone in NAM test it... getting Andy to perform the testing should be a good way to reduce the firestorm.
I hope it works... both the testing strategy (Andy) and the product (2nd generation Alta TMIC)
And if you were a vendor/tuner... and you were going to have someone in NAM test it... getting Andy to perform the testing should be a good way to reduce the firestorm.
I hope it works... both the testing strategy (Andy) and the product (2nd generation Alta TMIC)
2nd Gear
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Far East
why u cannot just produce FMIC? 
I am waiting for affordable price FMIC will be release one day.
I like alta intercooler but new one is quite ugly design.
I am wondering how the air goes deeper in the intercooler.
I like webb motorsports FMIC but the problem is very expensive price.
I am waiting for affordable price FMIC will be release one day.
I like alta intercooler but new one is quite ugly design.
I am wondering how the air goes deeper in the intercooler.
I like webb motorsports FMIC but the problem is very expensive price.
Originally Posted by CARdiac
I love creative thinking... can't wait to see the #s
and with Alta's history of good products I'm sure it will continue Alta's good rep .
Originally Posted by mini_r53
why u cannot just produce FMIC?
I like alta intercooler but this one is quite ugly design.
I dont want to open the bonet.
I like alta intercooler but this one is quite ugly design.
I dont want to open the bonet.
-jac
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From: Oregon
Joker,
The ends are taller, but not wider but the acutal charge air flow surface area is much more. One of the benifits. The width of the complete IC is the same as our other IC, which is wider than the stock. So it is as wide as possible with still being able to install the boots.
ingsoc,
actually the weight is lighter by a little do to less of the "bars" used. The fins and plates there are a few more of which don't weight much. There still isn't a wieght advantage over the stock parts. We are only talking a few pounds.
mini_r53,
The FMIC is an expensive endever. The problem is we don't want to copy that design you showed below, Dastek, not WMS. And to really do it the right way there is a lot of cutting and removing of bumper beams, and stuff. This isn't really something that the Mini community is up for doing. Spending a little time on a better TMIC is worth the time. Mainly do to the end cost being basically the same as the currrent IC.
As far as how it looks, the end tanks are quick protos and are kind of ugly. If all goes well the endtanks will be cast, and it will be pretty. I think the way it looks is kind of clean. Which should appeal to the mini communitity. And for all those that don't like logos, we will keep the top logo a little smaller than normal.
The ends are taller, but not wider but the acutal charge air flow surface area is much more. One of the benifits. The width of the complete IC is the same as our other IC, which is wider than the stock. So it is as wide as possible with still being able to install the boots.
ingsoc,
actually the weight is lighter by a little do to less of the "bars" used. The fins and plates there are a few more of which don't weight much. There still isn't a wieght advantage over the stock parts. We are only talking a few pounds.
mini_r53,
The FMIC is an expensive endever. The problem is we don't want to copy that design you showed below, Dastek, not WMS. And to really do it the right way there is a lot of cutting and removing of bumper beams, and stuff. This isn't really something that the Mini community is up for doing. Spending a little time on a better TMIC is worth the time. Mainly do to the end cost being basically the same as the currrent IC.
As far as how it looks, the end tanks are quick protos and are kind of ugly. If all goes well the endtanks will be cast, and it will be pretty. I think the way it looks is kind of clean. Which should appeal to the mini communitity. And for all those that don't like logos, we will keep the top logo a little smaller than normal.