Off topic, but responding to off topic comments - as the guy who posted Ryephile's PM, in general, I'd agree - it's not an appropriate thing to do.

However, when you get an unprovoked message of extreme hostility like that one, I don't know of any other way to show up the hostile for what he is - ill-mannered, to be charitable, and in violation of the policies of this site at the least.

I'd say that if you don't want a message made public, first establish a trusting relationshop, instead of throwing a grenade...

 

Talked to Helix the other day, he's still not convinced about the crank pulley.
He mentioned Nuzzo won't run one, so he's holding off. Helix's not selling any. I was going to go 17 +2, but went 19 after talking to Helix.
[font=Lucida Sans Unicode][/font]

 

Bingo dude! This guy is just out to scare people with no real information, and bashing those that bother to ask those "in-the-know".

 

 

keep it to yourself! I don't see anything wrong with posting a PM. If the PMer doesn't want the PM posted, the person can request that, but there is not requirment that unsolicited comments are private communication. It takes two to agree to the privacy!

For those that think there is no content here, maybe yes, maybe no, but pure BS? Maybe, all but my posts, that is!

Anyway, there is actuall science here, but the truth of the matter is that unless someone does the FEA to model the system and it's ressonences, we're all left just waiting for more miles to be driven.

But to all who profess catastrophic failure, the tea leaves are starting to indicate it's just not so for our motors. I'm the first to say that the statistical base for this claim is currently weak, but it's getting stronger every day!

So, you want to wait and see, fine. You want to be an early adopter and go for it, fine. The only thing I think is out of place here, is the level of the contention. It's not worth starting a war over!

For more entertaining reading, search on "lightened crank pully" "harmonic balancer" or "dampener" and have fun reading. It's deja-vu all over again, but those other threads came first!

Matt

 

OldRIck, I've respected your opinions as trying to help the community, along with everyone else who publically posts, ALL of which are far more experts on this than me. A group discussion is the way to learn. However ...

Your way off base on publically posted a private message of ANY form. Maybe not everyone understand the copyright laws, especially as applying to the Internet, but THE MOMENT anyone writes an Email or private message to one other person, the originator of the Email is automatically the copyright owner.

You had NO RIGHT at all to publically post Ryephiles message sent in private. If you dont think so, go look up the copyright laws. You could have posted "parts of it" but not the whole thing ... Sorry to be WAY OT but it needed to be said. He owns that message ... not you. Sorry dude.

If you post publically, the world owns it

 

i thought copyright laws addressed who owned the content, and that same owner needed to be credited if quoted, or even paid for the useage.


I'll send my two bits to 'Opile.

 

You can quote parts under "fair usage" but not the whole thing. The originator always "owns" the message. Thats why some people doing business emails put a disclaimer on the bottom so that it wont be passed on ... to keep the reader informed... after all, I would agree probably very few actual follow the law and may be difficult to do anything about it except in case of corporate emails where you get a subpoena!

 

I think people are grabbing at straws thinking that a harmonic balancer is going to prevent a blowup or major castrophy. Most rod failures are just that. Unless you are running Carillos, Pauters or other high quality rods, these things fail because of high rpms. BMW's rev high but not as high as we would like in our Coopers. All the guys that have built my motors (non-Mini) always want the best rods the buyer can afford if your looking for high revs - otherwise don't rev it till it pops. I would want to look at the main bearing lands and line-bore for the crank to be shaking the thing to bits first.
I'm running one and I guess I'll be like the others and wait and see what happens. If then it lets go, better rods and pistons and all the other junk on top to go with it. My $0.02 worth.

 

I think in the spirit of the rest of this thread, maybe you should provide some "documentation" of this supposed copyright issue that you describe here.

I learned something long ago. If you don't want it to be read by someone else, don't write it down. Not on an email, on a voicemail, on paper, or other.

I haven't seen the author of the PM in question deny that it was written, or complain about his text being posted in the thread, so why don't you just drop it?

 

It is modified from it's original form, so by definition, it cannot be a coplete original copy. So seems like "fair use" covers this one. Also, anyone who sends and insult to someone better expect it to be discussed. The quote and it's content are attributed to the author, so what's the problem? Why RP does have some very good knowledge, it's not the first time delivery has been questionable.....

I found a nice little web site on the subject....
http://www.fplc.edu/tfield/copynet.htm

Here are a few quotes.....
"Basic limits to copyright.
Although email messages and web pages may enjoy copyright protection, rights are subject to several fundamental limits. For example, only expression is protected, not facts or ideas. Also, later works that merely happen to be very similar (or even identical) to earlier works do not infringe if they were, in fact, independently created. Sources of general information on those topics are listed below.

Fair use.
Fair use is one of the most important, and least clear cut, limits to copyright. It permits some use of others' works even without approval. But when? Words like "fair" or "reasonable" cannot be precisely defined, but here are a few benchmarks.

Uses that advance public interests such as criticism, education or scholarship are favored -- particularly if little of another's work is copied. Uses that generate income or interfere with a copyright owner's income are not. Fairness also means crediting original artists or authors. "

Seems that the quote is both reasonable ("Guess what this guy called me, you'd never believe it, but here it is") and covered as discussion criticism.

Also from the same citation....
"Authors' Rights

Registration.
Although web pages and email messages are protected as soon as created, copyright registration is needed before U.S. owners can bring suit. Also, prompt registration provides remedies that make lawsuits affordable. Statutory damages of $150,000 (or more, and attorney fees) for willful infringement can be obtained if published works are registered within three months, or unpublished works are registered before they are infringed.

Registration costs only $30.00, and simple application forms with basic instructions are available from the Copyright Office -- TX still appears to be the best choice. Yet, it would be prohibitively expensive for prolific authors or artists to register individual items other than in the context of existing disputes. Their options much improve when multiple works can be registered as a collection."

So, you can register your copyright at $30 a pop, or forgo registration, and therefor the ability to persue a claim.

So I'd have to say that the interpretation you have of e-mail copyright law is much more strict that this site is reporting. If you want some fun, read some of the disclaimers that he's come across......

Anyway, it seems like quoting part (and sometimes all) of an e-mail for non-commercial perposes is pretty much fair game, as long as it is part of a broader debate on a public issue. (Whether that issue is dampeners or OldRicks personality is open to debate )

Matt

ps, sorry for the off-topic.....

just to keep the bar fight going, Fluidampers and the Stick-Slip unit being worked on by Pilo don't have tuned frequenies like the cheaper elastomer ones do. There are also some that rattle (I think it's called the rattler!) that don't have the same frequency response as the rubber ones too.

 

Very nice, Dr. -

what the heck is a "stick-slip"?

 

The "rattler", that would have been my early model vibration damper at about the 45,000 mile mark.

 

First rule of email - Never send a message that you don't want to see made public.

 

It's a method by which the vibrations cause friction disks to rub against each other, dissapaiting energy. The phrase stick-slip comes from the fact that coefficients of static friction (two things pressed against each other) is usually higher than sliding friction. So the parts stick together, then break free and slide. This also goes by the name Sticktion (not a scientific term but in common use) sticking friction. For more details, look up friction motors.....

Matt

Oh boy, also repeating these things from earlier threads is making me feel old, old, old. Maybe I should change my handle to "The Old Dr Obnxs"! But if it helps, I'll keep posting away. It's either that or filing all this years paperwork, and last years, and getting ready for this years taxes......

 

Good stuff Matt. Reminds me of some readings on seismology and plate techtonics .

Since it appears that our various MINIs will be different with regard to which RPM range is taboo, is there a relatively easy way to discern that band? Beause if so, we could make sure no to "live" there for extended durations of time. Ideally, this would be below idle...

 

creates this harmful resonance but to discover if there is an amplitude threshold that needs to be achieved in order for significant damage to occur. Are there tuner shops that can test for resonance and determine when it becomes harmful given an engines mods etc.?

 

I bet Dinan can.

 

that SHOULD be able to tell when there's more vibration.... Or you can slowly rev the motor, and see what RPM the car starts to shake at.....

Matt

 

[QUOTE=norm03s]Did you calculate in the pulsating renascences the supercharger imparts to the shaft and pulley?

I wonder if there really isn't more evidence but it has yet to be revealed i.e. pulleys walking off, belts breaking.
A couple of indicators possible would be, oil analysis at regular intervals to see if bearings are showing wear earlier. Or a vibration frequency monitor on the engine block like a knock sensor to log changes with and without the solid pulley.[/QUOTE]

 

I think this will be a very long ongoing thread topic. Just as we think people are educated about crank pulleys someone else comes along and says they are going to blow your car up.

There are many customers of ours out there that have them installed for more than 40K. And also since we have been selling them for the last 3 years or so, there is many many of them out there. But like we have always said before, time will tell. All the technobable about why you need a harmonic damperen is great, but in the end real world tests are the best proof.

People can specualte all day long that they may or may not do damage but, our proof is the customers who say their car runs smoother, revs quicker, and idles smoother, and the fact they have 40K miles on their car. People can also speculate all day long about how they make HP, but for some reason there seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding these parts.

If you are someone that is worried about this problem, then the part isn't for you. If you are like many other people that are trying to get that last little extra bit of HP out of the car, this is a great part for you. Also if you are just a tinkerer, then this is really a good part for you.

 

Everyone - not to side track the discussion but given the issues early on with this thread I've created a thread regarding cleanup of this thread over in Site Feedback. Jump over and let me know your thoughts.

Click here for the site feedback thread

Thanks

Mark

 

Jeff,

Out of curiosity, what kind of testing process is normally done on new parts that come from well known manufacturers like Alta? I recall in an interview Mike Cooper seemed to go to great lengths (no doubt forced by BMW)--- all-weather testing (across a range of climates), presumably on a dozen or so test vehicles. It seemed fairly rigorous.

Do you beta test things on a group of lucky geographically dispersed customers, etc.?

I for one don't need actual proof. In modding my car, I'm accepting certain risks, so whether or not the crank pulley is "proven" (in the formal mathematical sense, but dang if the margin is too narrow to write it all out) to be completely safe is moot for me.

By the way, members of NAM should feel free to post their questions or issues. We're all adults here and can make up our own minds. I was surprised to see Ryephile's angry response to poor OldRick. That's unacceptable crap, whether or not it was done privately, especially coming from someone as respected as Ryephile.

 

Sounds like some of you guys are thinking this crank pulley is some kind of experimental drug that needs a 3 year double-blind study as to it's safety and efficacy. We are not talking about something that you ingest into your body. How long have people been hot-rodding their cars? Are we too civilized for our own good? If you don't want to take any risks in life or to your mini, then don't. But if you want more power and more fun then go for it and don't lose any sleep over it. Life is too damn short for this constant whining about the risks.

 

Worst case (although quite unlikely) you could break a crank, best case you don't gain anything. Why do it?

If you need more boost change the SC pulley. If that isn't enough get a bigger blower or a turbo:smile:

The more power you make the more harmonics you will have to deal with.