Drivetrain turbo kit feasibility
#1
12-19-2002, 01:01 AM
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Hello all. I would like to make brief intro since I am new here. I am a moderator over at mazdamp3.com a mazda forum and work for a company that manufactur's turbo kits and products for the Protege 5 / WRX (www.spool-turbo.com) I am not trying to sell anything here, We do not sell products for the mini. What I am trying to do is gauge the feasibilty of a turbo kit for your cars. I am aware that there is turbo kit in the works. But how many of you guys are actually interested in turboing your mini? Are there any particular options in a kit that you are looking for that is not currently available? Any gripes concerns with actually adding a kit to you cars or what is currently available on the market?
I was reading up on a recent thread regarding turbocharging the mini and replied to it. Many comments and concerns were made regarding turbocharging the motor that I found not to be particularly correct. I quoted the following text in which I responded to the thread....excuse me for sort of double posting:D
I was reading up on a recent thread regarding turbocharging the mini and replied to it. Many comments and concerns were made regarding turbocharging the motor that I found not to be particularly correct. I quoted the following text in which I responded to the thread....excuse me for sort of double posting:D
First of all I have noticed that many people are concerned with the stock tranny and its ability to handle the increased torque and hp output from an F/I application.
In most cases transmissions have to be over engineered to take abuse ect into account. We have turboed many MP3's / protege 5's that come with 106whp from the factory. These transmissions are notorios for lack of strength. Mazda has had many problems with the protege transmission............and mostly due to the age segment that are driving these cars (17-22 year olds) that do not know how to drive or just flat out abuse them burnouts ect.
On our current project car we are laying down over 230 lbs of torque and hp at the wheels for over a year now on this supposed weak tranny.
The point I am trying to make is this. One must excersise mechanical empathy on there vehicle when they are doubling the hp rating of it. That means no excessive burnouts, powershiffting thry every gear ect.
Other statements that I have been reading is that the mini's motor cannot hanle boost and for it to actually handle a turbo internals will have to be upgraded. This is a myth. Turbocharging an engine involves many things in order to have a good running engine with a long life span. Fueling will have to be increased accuratly. Timing will have to be retarded thru-out the entire rev range via altered timing maps ect. With these 2 aspects covered any engine can sucessfully be turbocharged and more importantly reliably.
In most cases transmissions have to be over engineered to take abuse ect into account. We have turboed many MP3's / protege 5's that come with 106whp from the factory. These transmissions are notorios for lack of strength. Mazda has had many problems with the protege transmission............and mostly due to the age segment that are driving these cars (17-22 year olds) that do not know how to drive or just flat out abuse them burnouts ect.
On our current project car we are laying down over 230 lbs of torque and hp at the wheels for over a year now on this supposed weak tranny.
The point I am trying to make is this. One must excersise mechanical empathy on there vehicle when they are doubling the hp rating of it. That means no excessive burnouts, powershiffting thry every gear ect.
Other statements that I have been reading is that the mini's motor cannot hanle boost and for it to actually handle a turbo internals will have to be upgraded. This is a myth. Turbocharging an engine involves many things in order to have a good running engine with a long life span. Fueling will have to be increased accuratly. Timing will have to be retarded thru-out the entire rev range via altered timing maps ect. With these 2 aspects covered any engine can sucessfully be turbocharged and more importantly reliably.
#2
12-19-2002, 03:55 AM
2nd Gear
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This topic has ben brought up befor. The bigest concern that I have seen is not the engine but the trainy.
Wow! 200hp in a mini sure does sound like fun, but I wonder about the viability of these claims...and the ability of the 5 speed or CVT to handle this amount of power.
200hp is a 74% increase over stock power with no modification to the compression ration (hence the relatively low boost of 5-7 psi). I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'd want to do a lot more research on this kit before installing it on a car of mine. The web page makes no mention of a piggyback ECU to manage detonation...maybe it is part of the "controller".
I'm anxious to see what becomes of this kit and others like it! 200hp in a mini - WOOT!
200hp is a 74% increase over stock power with no modification to the compression ration (hence the relatively low boost of 5-7 psi). I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'd want to do a lot more research on this kit before installing it on a car of mine. The web page makes no mention of a piggyback ECU to manage detonation...maybe it is part of the "controller".
I'm anxious to see what becomes of this kit and others like it! 200hp in a mini - WOOT!
#3
12-19-2002, 04:29 AM
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I for one am certainly interested in turbocharging my MINI. And I think the tranny can take the added power, as long as it's kept within reason. That's why they engineer in a large safety margin. And I'm pretty sure BMW engineered the new MINI with its racing heritage in mind. The potential is there for a vwery fast car.
My main concern at this point is price. MiniMania's turbo kit sounds like it's well engineered, but for $5k, it would almost be cheaper to trade in my Cooper and get a Cooper S. I know that the R & D isn't cheap, but you must be able to offer the product at a reasonable price, or you're just throwing money away.
I would be willing to fork over about $3K, which I think is reasonable for a turbo kit. But anything higher than that just isn't worth my money. Heck, that's a decent down payment on a new S!
Jason
My main concern at this point is price. MiniMania's turbo kit sounds like it's well engineered, but for $5k, it would almost be cheaper to trade in my Cooper and get a Cooper S. I know that the R & D isn't cheap, but you must be able to offer the product at a reasonable price, or you're just throwing money away.
I would be willing to fork over about $3K, which I think is reasonable for a turbo kit. But anything higher than that just isn't worth my money. Heck, that's a decent down payment on a new S!
Jason
#5
12-19-2002, 09:26 AM
I think if engineered properly, the turbo would be a great addition - I love the sound! The problem is as stated earlier - the gearbox is rated for about 150hp, so, let's say that is a conservative estimate on the engineer's part - the box still shouldn't be pushed more than 175.
That said, 175hp would be a lot of fun - that's close to what the S has and it's a whole different car. I think the key would be to do a clean install. The kit that is available just isn't pretty. There is a finite anount of space underhood, so that would be a challenge, but it could be done.
Welcome to MCO!!
Randy
randy@mini-motorsport.com
That said, 175hp would be a lot of fun - that's close to what the S has and it's a whole different car. I think the key would be to do a clean install. The kit that is available just isn't pretty. There is a finite anount of space underhood, so that would be a challenge, but it could be done.
Welcome to MCO!!
Randy
randy@mini-motorsport.com
#6
12-19-2002, 02:56 PM
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#7
12-20-2002, 09:55 AM
Terry
I know the Mini S engine has been "beefed up" mechanically to handle the additional power. I have a standard Mini with CVT. I'd like some addition turbo "go" but my concern would be two-fold: the engine and the CVT. I don't profess to be an expert but I would think the compression would have to be reduced to handle the boost from the turbo without burning pistons. Are the standard engine pistons forged or cast? I don't think cast pistons would handle it. And the CVT...what is the design margin...20% or 30%? Based on a standard 115 HP, that would be 127 and 138 HP respectively. Increasing the output to 150 HP without mechanical modifications, I would be concerned. I think one of the other respondits made a good point. If the turbo package is more than $3000, why take the risk. Buy the S that has been designed for the additional output
I know the Mini S engine has been "beefed up" mechanically to handle the additional power. I have a standard Mini with CVT. I'd like some addition turbo "go" but my concern would be two-fold: the engine and the CVT. I don't profess to be an expert but I would think the compression would have to be reduced to handle the boost from the turbo without burning pistons. Are the standard engine pistons forged or cast? I don't think cast pistons would handle it. And the CVT...what is the design margin...20% or 30%? Based on a standard 115 HP, that would be 127 and 138 HP respectively. Increasing the output to 150 HP without mechanical modifications, I would be concerned. I think one of the other respondits made a good point. If the turbo package is more than $3000, why take the risk. Buy the S that has been designed for the additional output
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#8
12-20-2002, 10:14 AM
One other point to consider, the current turbo kit is not street legal in many states because it has not been emissions certified. This can be a costly process, especially in CA.(where the current kit was developed). If you can't certify it then I would think your market will be very limited because most racers can't add a turbo without changing their class at the track, if they are permitted to add one.
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