I would like to see a more positive reception for new ideas and products. I know some vendors do make claims which I take as enthusiasm but not nessisarily as fact. When a product is brand new it takes a while to get some first customers to try it. I am not really interested in a vendor backing their own claims as I prefer real feedback from these early customers. I appreciate vendors who keep us in the loop during development. But if we greet these new ideas with a nasty attitude we are only discouraging them from sharing with us in the future. Before launching my own product on NAM I only shared with two NAM members that I respected. It would have been nice if I could have shared my developement work with all of you, as I would have used the feedback to maybe improve the product and give you exactly what you want, but I knew better than to do that, based on the way vendors are treated by some people on this site. When you are excited about a new idea and working hard into the early morning hours, you don't feel like being beaten up for your efforts. Unless I missed a few threads I haven't seen any NAM vendors ripping anyone off on this site. Maybe the best place to beat up on vendors who derserve it would be in a Consumer Watch section. I am personally disgusted with with what appears to be certain people beating up on M7 everytime they try to do anythng inovative. M7 is my competitor as we are both after the same discretionary income, but I have respect for anyone with new ideas as well as those who are paying to be on this site. Without sponsors there would be no NAM.

 

Unfortunately, I think that has already happened (and I'm not referring to M7). Sigh.

 

Wow, I just got caught up with this thread and cannot believe what has transpired in my absense....

Not good for the MINI community as a whole...

 

"If you keep asking us to back up our claims, we're going to have to stop making products."

 

From the very beginning, this is all I have wanted to know:

What is the optimal air flow and what did the AGS tests show?
What is the amount of increased horsepower?
What is the amount of increased torque?

Their own verbage on their own website would indicate they know these numbers, so why is it so hard for them to share this information with potential buyers?

 

Andy,

Who wrote that? Not sure about the context - I'm missing something I think???

 

Maybe because the pack of wolves are ready to attack if M7 where to share their OWN numbers. Do you really think M7 could do this and not get attacked on this site. I can see it now, "Why should we believe M7" "They just want our money". I think that because of a few who always find a reason to attack, you will now have to wait for some of the first buyers to report in. I think one of the "numbers guys" should buy it first since they seem to believe they know how to test a product better than most of us.

 

I agree with your statements! The line seperating free flowing information between vendor and buyer might be said to be defined by the health of the environment between vendor and buyer. I am concerned that vendors will withhold development information for the reasons you wrote. My last statement was reactionary; I simply feel bad for folks who sweat the long nights trying to develope creative solutions for us speed freaks.

I'm an underdog kind of person and my underdog is process. If we succeeded in getting a successful component to market, but knuckles are bloodied thru disrespectful human interaction along the way, the value is lost for me. The experiementation process is uniquely human and we try to pass thru it as quickly as possible. It's kind of like chugging a great glass of wine; the buzz is there, but somehow it just isn't as much fun as sipping.

QUOTE=eMINI]Great point, meb. I don't want to lose the fore-knowledge that a new product I may want is in the pipeline. I may be willing to wait for it. I like having that ability.

I also respect the position that consumers should have enough access to product information to make an informed decision. If we don't get enough info to become convinced, why should we purchase the product?

However, meb (and others), are equally correct that the product developer needs some time and space to complete their product before it is judged. If we beat them up all along the way, they will have no choice but to withhold new product info until all the T's are crosses and I's are dotted. By then many of us may have committed to another product. It could be our loss.

In the end, if the information available is not sufficient to convince us, we won't buy the product.

In the case of the M7 AGS, the teaser/marketing info combined with the length of the product development cycle has created such a stir that some of us have become impatient to the point of being contentious. Someone made the point that these forums have changed the way business is being done. That's certainly true. Let's just don't make it so hostile that we deny ourselves insights into future products.[/QUOTE]

 

He's good huh J??

 

but why?? I think were all having a great time.

Live and let live.

 

why is therre so much bad blood?

if someone wants AGS and don't mind paying the premium let him do it! im very happy with my alta... i am interested in m7's continuous putting up with the flame wars that arise here.. also is their way of thinking outside of the box..

i've said it before their system does look remarkably similar to the hai... but is it the same? obiviously no! people do this all the time... things get taken and improved upon.. hai flows great! but who says that the ags wont flow even better THANKS to HAI's idea? think of someone taking an existing idea and just improve upon it....

as for dyno results.. eveyrone always love numbers but there's always going to be those who challenge them... it seems particularly bad for M7 posts because it seems like here everyone's scavangers and picks apart every single bit of data any manufacturer makes... it's been said thousands of times... if m7 gets certain numbers, great... but it doesn't apply to anything but their own car, at the EXACT moment when it was dynoed... it'd be great if they can give a good range of hp gains, numbers they get from customers from individual dynos all over the country, and post those with where, when, who did the pull, the weather etc... , which would give a good idea... hard numbers are always bad, because it is too open for interpretation... if m7 posts their dyno results... eveyrone's going to tkae it with a grain of salt! because only way to repeat those results would be to get it on the same dyno... in the same tune car, with the EXACT same hp numbers from the factory, with the same weight, same rotational mass.. same weather... and those cannot be reproduced in just any dyno.. you'd be at a nasa station with enviromental control for that! so if we all know that m7 numbers will be challenged, then why post it.. considering that even if a third party wants to dyno the part and prove M7 right, they can't! i'd be very suprised if someone across the country can get the same number with the alta intake.. yet we all believed that it made 9 hp when it first came out

keep at it M7... im sure there are going to be some eye opening moments when an independent third party dynos the part...

 

[Warning: Potentially humorous material to follow. Please skip the rest of this post if, for any reason, you can't take a joke.]

We won't buy without proof, but vendor numbers can't be trusted. Nor can the opinions and experiences of enthusiastic customers be trusted. As I see it, we're really in a tough spot, but I may have a a solution we can all live with. Please consider the following proposal:



I'm just kidding . I mean no offense. I really do share the desire to get good information upon which to base purchasing decisions. It just seems to be a bit more hostile than is necessary. We drive happy cars. Let's try to be happy ourselves.

 

great post!

 

Ditto

 

eMINI,

I got quite a laugh over you post, so true.

As an AGS owner I would love to tell you all about the product but I am not an approved "NAMPRI" tester so my opinion is obviously worthless.:smile: :smile:

Bill

 

Silence! Do not defile the temple with your unapproved opinions!

 

eMINI says: Silence! Do not defile the temple with your unapproved opinions!


OK

 

This is a community of new MINI enthusiasts. The goal of the community is to enhance the ownership of your MINI through the exchange of information. We encourage your participation and request that you respect your fellow enthusiasts in the same manner that you wish to be respected. If, when writing, you think that someone may incorrectly interpret your meaning as being offensive, please use the emotion icons to better express your thoughts.
Respect is Key
The North American Motoring community is a place where you can express yourself...as long as you treat your fellow enthusiasts with respect.

Welcome New Visitors and Members
To grow our community, we enthusiastically welcome new visitors and members. There are many among our membership that have years of experience and a passion for the new MINI that is infectious. Help new members learn what our community offers, how to locate information, and how to contribute in a manner that is beneficial to all.
So which came first the Members or the Vendors???
All some of us want is for the vendor of this product to post what he said would.
I can be critical of a product based on that or just because if I want to.
I hope your not inferring anything personal here because of my views.
Originally Posted by RLmini
"Maybe because the pack of wolves are ready to attack if M7 where to share their OWN numbers. Do you really think M7 could do this and not get attacked on this site. I can see it now, "Why should we believe M7" "They just want our money". I think that because of a few who always find a reason to attack, you will now have to wait for some of the first buyers to report in. I think one of the "numbers guys" should buy it first since they seem to believe they know how to test a product better than most of us."

No Personal Attacks
Personal attacks will not be tolerated. We encourage and support spirited discussions as long as they are conducted in a respectful and thoughtful manner. :smile: :smile: :smile:
We shall see what we see and the rest we won't.
So relax, don't get so emotional, it's a nice day, it's only a car, you are not in control, just be thankful of that. :smile:

 

There is always an argument about numbers. People want horsepower numbers and torque numbers without really thinking about where they come from. Why would M7 want to post horsepower numbers if it can prove a 10% increase in airflow. This should automatically imply more horsepower and torque. Numbers are tricky anyway dynos can be manipulated or incorrectly calibrated. Applications are always different for different cars. Some vendors post HP figures and are criticized. For the record, I have been for a ride in an M7 AGS-modified S and after the experience I am planning on getting one, if not solely for the sound it makes and the extra room it creates in the engine bay. Please stop bashing vendors on a public forum about new products, if you really have a question pick up the phone and call the vendor or even send a private message. I would think that someone who really cared about the product would do that while others who prefer to take stabs on this message board have no desire to purchase the product or are just bored and looking to start a fire.

 

 

Right on eMINI!

I said it before here, and in another thread, a 3rd party that is un-affiliated to the interested parties is what's needed. Requesting vendors to provide "proof" is in some ways tantamount to having the mouse watch the cheese. If a number is provided, there will be many plausible and obvious opportunities for refutation. Even if the experiment is done properly with exacting equipment and protocol, how do we the consumers really know that the data provided to us is what the experimentation elicited?

We don't know. It's a matter of trust at that point. And if there is none in that vendor/tuner, or not a sufficient amount of it, any data provided will mostly likely be considered tainted. All the more reason to invest the time to build relationships with these guys...

In addition to forging such relationships, research things!. Every product I've purchased for my MCS entailed the use of the search button here on NAM and MINI2. I read all that I could, and I asked questions when clarification was sought. I have PM'd folks on almost every item that has caught my interest. onasled got hit-up most recently (control arms) . And of course I pick the minds of the vendor and manufacturer, if different. Heck, I've even gone on other forums for different makes to get input there as well. If one cares enough, such due diligence is essential; at least for me to make an educated and well-informed decision. Between doing this, and having a vendor/tuner with whom I feel good about, that's about the best dang checks-and-balances one is going to get...

And while proving that a product delivers is riddled with the aforementioned, it gets much more so when one then decides to compare such results or "proof" with that of a competing item. As consumers, we often have choices, and many of them.

Let's say one product comes with empirical data, derived from state-of-the-art, highly accurate equipment. On top of this, it is conveyed that the testing method is equally sound, and methodically controlled. An assortment of data is provided, one being a whp figure of let's say 8. A few other competing products, in the same price-range, offer dyno numbers only, but in bhp of 12 and 14. Making a decision based upon numbers provided, if legitimate, and obtained in radically different ways is absurd. And to expect all to use the same equipment and method for testing is not realistic, nor possibly feasible for every company. Along with these choices, there might be other competing products that stay away from this whole number fiasco; as their companies have decided to simply state the qualities or attributes that make their product the most desirable.

Ideally, I'd want numbers that prove things, without a doubt. Life would be much easier indeed. However, we are not in a vacuum, and minus the proper scientific approach, the last thing I want is numbers that can masquerade as such, which I find to be worse than minimal to no information...

In the absence of the ideal:

Do research to understand what characteristics lend themselves to performance gains for intakes, exhausts and everything in-between...

Critique the products on the market to see which employ any or all of these accepted attributes...

Once the selection process has narrowed-down a bit, gather information on those items from incessant research...

And shop for a vendor like it's one of the biggest purchases in your MINI life! Build a rapport, understand their philosophy and approach, and see if they inquire as to what you want your MINI to become. If not, tell them, and see if they care and assist you accordingly. It's about building trust, and that's what we are really talking about here...

 

I can't believe this thread is still going on...

I understand why m7 would be cautious about posting numbers on this forum as they will most definetly be attacked by the pack of wolves that are the NAM forumites. However, I think that they should publish figures on their website ASAP even if they are bias. Many people may be on the market for a CAI system and may overlook the AGS since they have no ballpark estimate as to how well it will perform.

 

Peter W, You the man, just took all the words out of my mouth. I'm glad you liked it,me too! You will be the first to get it as soon as the shipment arrived.

 

But if you read Tonyb's response again, he points to trust rather than actual numbers as even well executed dyno runs can be skewed by any number of 'things' however unintentional.

 

After going to school, reading this and related threads and giving it some thought, I have come to some conclusions.

Would I be correct in asserting that flow testing would be more repeatable and more consistent across many cars? If that's the case, these would be the numbers we would like to see, right? We all know Dyno numbers are easily skewed and difficult to repeat. They're more useful for marketing products than they are for the average enthusiast seeking to improve his/her car's performance.

The major factors that allow an intake system to produce more power on a given engine are: 1) flow (volume & speed) and, 2) intake air temperature. Gains in these areas offer the potential for gains in power, especially if the intake was the "bottleneck". Let's see those kind of numbers.

As an alternative to the "early adopters", there is another approach I've had success using in the past. It is simple and accessable to all of us:

Accuracy is influenced by your ability to attain the same conditions before/after the modification. But the up-side is big: It gives you a quantitative measure of how the mod affected the performance of your car independent of claims and seat-of-the-pants perceptions.

Give it a try. It's something you can do yourself to evaluate the affect of any power modification.