Not for me.

But it was a serious question, just like the ones I've posed earlier in this thread to the people who have declared they're buying the system. Once again, to either M7 or the people who have stated they're buying the system:

Why?

 

Sorry I have to say this...
The guys who just ***** about on everything.. not that its wrong, getting to my point, but its getting scary now. Its all the time and on every detail.

How about you guys get together and just design the best of everything that the vendors have to offer?

I'm not kidding either. Go ahead and start laughing.. this is what scares the vendors when thinking of getting a new product into the market.

Disclaimer: This is what the whole picture looks like to me, that's if I'm important to you (a wee bit)

 

A question for M7:


Would you recommend this system for a stock MCS, or should it be done after other mods (exhaust, pulley, etc.)?

 

Technically you cant order this product from their website yet.
http://www.m7tuning.com/products/ags.htm

There are no pictures on their site, and no other info aside from a general description. Until the manufacturer actualy puts the item up for sale to the public, I usually don't think there is any requirement for them to back up their product, because...it's not for sale yet.

Personally I really enjoy the vendor being as foreward as they are in the Mini world. Having tuned Hondas for the last 12 years, Ill tell you that unless you were DIRECTLY involved with the manufacturer you had nothing but the slightest inkling (if you were lucky) that there was a major new product about to hit the market. Perhaps you would get a couple of weeks lead time, but thats about it.

The fact that the guys at M7 even let the Mini community know that they were working on the AGS is something everybody should relish. I really enjoy the way this community works so far, and I hope that the vendors, and owners continue to have a close relationship in the future.

-Jake

 

Why would YOU posting the results of YOUR product cause bad blood with other vendors?? If yours is better, so be it.

 

Maybe another dyno party in the SoCal area is due. There was a dyno party done at DRS by MiniRaider not too long ago. I think if a publically held dyno test was conducted - all disputes will be dispelled. SCMM should come down - they're a large enough group to vouch for everyone.

What do you think M7? It would make great PR for you guys too.

Seeing is believing -

-shenmue2

 

I have no other engine modifications, and would be willing, schedule permitting, to do before and after dyno runs at such a party.

 

Hi Peter:smile: Don't forget one to Midwest

 

Hello, Vendor here (please don't shoot!)

If I where M7 I wouldn't give any numbers as that would just pour more fuel on the fires set by all the Raph Nader wanna be's on this site. As a vendor who spent many months working on my own product, I actually had second thoughts about even offering it on this site. While I designed and built my product I never evaulated it myself or made any claims from direct experience. In fact my brake system has never even been on my car due to the fact that it won't fit behind my S lights. Some Fellow racers had a need that I knew how to address. They tested it (not me), liked it , and word got out.

No matter how much some of you beat up on M7 there will still be some early adopters who will buy it and the word will get out to the rest of us in the mainstream market. Coming up with new ideas and bringing them to market is no easy task. Beating up on vendors is really easy. In fact some of you have become masters at it (which isn't saying much at all). I am sure other potential vendors have to decide if developing a product (that we may love) is even worth it. I spoke to other vendors before advertising on NAM and they all told me the same thing. "You have to live on NAM and be ready for the usual jerks".

 

Good point I like to start a new thread to see how many people are eagerly waiting for the AGS as I am.

 

So I understand.... You admit to designing a brake kit without ever testing it. You then sold it to some guys who "liked it" and that was good enough. You now sell this product line to others via NAM under the presumption that the testing of a system as critical as a braking system can be farmed out to some guys who said "I like it."

 

The person who tested the system is one of the top road racers here in Texas. There is no way I am as qualified to test them in racing conditions. He did not have to buy them until he was convinced they did the job for him. After he drove and raced for a few months he was given the choice to pay for them or take them off. They are still on his car a year and half latter. Other test pilots included Ryan at Detroit tuned, and Randy Webb.

Got a problem with that?

 

Nope :smile:

 

oh man, if i was a vendor, i'd avoid NAM like the plague. macncheese, ur rude questions are probably the reason why RLmini JUST SAID he was debating whether to offer his brake kit on your site. and yes, that WAS very rude, look at how you wrote it, making RLmini look like an ignorant man with low standards, turns out he is nothing of the sort and i don't even know him! baaah humbug.

 

one doesn't really have to ask why Webb has been absent after the Feb. raping he was receiving (besides his busy schedule supporting MINI owners and his family) and George pretty much let it go as well. Seems like NAM is a place to run off vendors. Good thing there are other well informed sites to lurk Hopefully M7 has strong jaws and can take the heat.

 

Like I said earlier. I'm suprised that NAM took away politics forums because "political subject matter has been found to polarize members"

Classic.

 

Me either.... so woudn't you rather know if what you're buying is an engineered solution or some pile of junk? Thats not aimed at any product in particular.

NAM or any other forum is changing the way business is done. When you come here and say "Here is the best <insert product>" you now have to back it up. The accessability to the consumer is no longer a one directional magazine ad where you say whatever you'd like and nobody questions it. If you choose to use the forums here to further your products, you're dangling that reply button in front of a bunch of people who know what questions to ask. Sometimes the questions are HARD and that's caught more than one vendor off guard.

 

Great question!

 

Sometimes the vendors answers can be just as hard and catch a member off guard. I couldn't believe your rudeness to me above. You seem to act as though anyone with an idea is con man and its your job to expose them for all the other members. My product is the only thing I sell and was a grass roots idea between members that wanted performance without paying twice as much. I have a real job that pays the bills. I make very little selling brake kits and don't really care if I sell any. This started as a favor to other members. It is jerks like you that make me feel like "screw this" I don't need the grief.

 

Yeah, Tony. You should have been on the Wine Country run with us!

 

Wow, there is a huge difference in this example, compared to the intake system we were talking about.

First of all, we have to remember the golden rule, buyer beware. I agree, I personally wouldn't put an untested system on my car. But I don't have to buy it. I'm also fairly certain that if I was interested in it, the vendor would provide me information on it.

In the case of this intake system, the vendor made claims. Claims like 'better' and 'best'. I only asked, how is it better? Why should I buy it? What were the 'better' and 'best' claims based on?

All mods are a bit of a crap shoot. Some are easier than others. Springs can be measured, sway bars can be measured. Wheel weights can be reported.

When it comes to power mods, it gets difficult. I've always tried to research as much as possible, find people who have purchased similar prodcuts, and then make a decision.

In this case, I've read basically "Take our word for it, our product works." I might believe it, and, if we get down the road and data becomes available, I'll reconsider. For now, I just remember that this vendor also brought us a product called the Plasma Booster, and I decide to withold judgement.

What I want from a vendor with a new product:

Tell me what the product is.
Tell me what the product does.
Tell me what effect this product will have on my enjoyment of my car.
Tell me why you think the product will do what you say it does.
If possible, provide some quantitative information.

Then, I can make my own decision. If I don't think the product will do what the vendor states, or if I think the potential 'side effects' are not worth the additional performance, then I won't buy it. I would not, however, give my unsolicited opinion that I don't think the product works. That is not my place.

What I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of people who need to calm down a bit. Vendors, competing vendors, and potential customers.
We don't need hyperbole from vendors, and we don't need crusading customers. We are all adults, and most of us are fairly smart. Let's try to remember that.

Now, I'm going back to waiting for some performance numbers on this product. (By the way, to the folks at M7: The product does at least look kinda pretty, but I do have a question. Have you verified that the mold release used in the rotomolding process does not contain silicones? Or, if it does, that the mold release is completely removed (washed) from the product before shipping? Some silicones can *possibly cause premature fouling of the catalytic converter.

*Don't ask me how, as I'm not a chemist, but it is a requirement from my company's customer (an American OEM) that we don't use silicone adhesives on our sensor products that operate in the exhaust stream.

 

Wow, talk about bashing! So its OK to dish it out, but not to take it? When a vendor makes a claim about a product don't the customers have the right to know the basis of the claim? Instead of a butt-dyno, there are many of us who want objective data that backs up the claim of the vendor. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with trying to understand the test process behind published numbers? Or should we blindly accept it when the vendor says bolt on my intake and you get x more hp?

Don't you want educated customers? Thats the best word of mouth IMO. If you can't provide valid proof your product does what you say, why are you in the market?

 

I think everyone should take a moment to think about the uniqueness in our vendor relationships; this close R&D interaction between buyer and developer is indeed rare. Should we expect supporting horse power numbers? Sure! But because 'you' don't see what 'you' want to see today, doesn't entitle 'you' to disrespect the process. I don't allow anyone to judge my process, just my results.

R&D sometimes takes the path unkown...more the norm in fact. Our vendors are not obligated to answer rampant, nasty questions. Be glad that 'you' are allowed a peek into a process 'you' know little about. If I were a vendor here, 'you' would never, ever see my work in process. It is in the end, meaningless if the results are positive.

 

Peter or Randy:


With the pre-order is it pre-pay, or payment on shipping?

Just wondering, as it will affect my getting the TB..

 

Great point, meb. I don't want to lose the fore-knowledge that a new product I may want is in the pipeline. I may be willing to wait for it. I like having that ability.

I also respect the position that consumers should have enough access to product information to make an informed decision. If we don't get enough info to become convinced, why should we purchase the product?

However, meb (and others), are equally correct that the product developer needs some time and space to complete their product before it is judged. If we beat them up all along the way, they will have no choice but to withhold new product info until all the T's are crosses and I's are dotted. By then many of us may have committed to another product. It could be our loss.

In the end, if the information available is not sufficient to convince us, we won't buy the product.

In the case of the M7 AGS, the teaser/marketing info combined with the length of the product development cycle has created such a stir that some of us have become impatient to the point of being contentious. Someone made the point that these forums have changed the way business is being done. That's certainly true. Let's just don't make it so hostile that we deny ourselves insights into future products.