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Drivetrain Prototype Charge Pipe Kit R53 MINI

Drivetrain (Cooper S) MINI Cooper S (R53) intakes, exhausts, pulleys, headers, throttle bodies, and any other modifications to the Cooper S drivetrain.
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Drivetrain Prototype Charge Pipe Kit R53 MINI

  #126  
Old 02-21-2019, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by black93supra View Post
I understand there is more to it than just dyno numbers. Most folks will be okay spending the money if it increases power. They dont usually spend money on modifications to improve gas mileage, its always more power. Its nice to see that the IAT temps are lower than with stock which is great. Id be fine with getting one at this point even with out the heat shield.
Without the heat-shield IATs are higher than the oem setup, but still feels better and boost goes up although the hot air. Main reason is the smooth transitional air flow and the reduction of pressure losses. You need the heat shield to lower the IATs. With the printed heat-shield boost pressure increased even more and car felt quicker. Imagine during summer IATs are constantly around 45 to 50 degrees Celsius and during hard pulls I saw 74 maximum at 5th gear and 6800 rpm (all this this an exposed air filter). In the next few days I will have the first carbon fiber heat shield so I will update yo guys, I feel like it will look goood !!

edit: I checked some data (I think I have already upload them here)

OEM setup 14.2 psi @ 7000 rpm 4th gear
Carbon Charge Pipe with 3d printed Heat Shield 16 psi @ 7000 4th gear
 
  #127  
Old 02-23-2019, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by P.E View Post
Without the heat-shield IATs are higher than the oem setup, but still feels better and boost goes up although the hot air. Main reason is the smooth transitional air flow and the reduction of pressure losses. You need the heat shield to lower the IATs. With the printed heat-shield boost pressure increased even more and car felt quicker. Imagine during summer IATs are constantly around 45 to 50 degrees Celsius and during hard pulls I saw 74 maximum at 5th gear and 6800 rpm (all this this an exposed air filter). In the next few days I will have the first carbon fiber heat shield so I will update yo guys, I feel like it will look goood !!

edit: I checked some data (I think I have already upload them here)

OEM setup 14.2 psi @ 7000 rpm 4th gear
Carbon Charge Pipe with 3d printed Heat Shield 16 psi @ 7000 4th gear
Wow 2 psi gain, that is very impressive!!!! Great stuff
 
  #128  
Old 03-10-2019, 04:48 AM
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So in one of my latest post I said I will create an nice assembly to illustrate as good as I can the whole kit. I am working on it, but I I want to go a bit over the top and create a really really detailed assembly. That means everything from the smallest detail has to be be designed, reverse engineered etc.
Below you can see the cad design of the BMW fuse I am using in this kit, for the throttle cable extension. This is all classic metrology and not 3d scanning (not that if you 3dscan you save time... still you need to design the whole component). I hope you like it !


 
  #129  
Old 03-11-2019, 05:43 AM
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Looks good and 2 PSI gain is nice, even if not optimal conditions.

Keep up the good work PE.
 
  #130  
Old 03-12-2019, 10:18 AM
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some more detailed 3d modeling for the final assembly
Next the high flow air filter ( that's going to be a bit challenging mainly because of the metal mesh )




 
  #131  
Old 03-14-2019, 03:09 AM
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Some more detailed models from the charge pipe assembly.
In this post you can see the airfilter, billet adapter and throttle body assembly.

Section view airfilter-billet adapter - throttle body. Check that smooth connection between each part The bolt like part in the top of the airfilter is the PCV adapter.

And the air filter ! Although it seems like an easy design (it is) it took me the most time, because I run out of computational power !!!! Believe it or not is by far the most complex model due to that metal mesh around the filter element. Only this model is actually an assembly of more than 200 parts ! Which is not a lot when a you find assemblies with thousands parts but futures like a mesh really slows down your machine !!

I hope you like it guys !
 
  #132  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:09 AM
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The renderings are cool and everything but it seems like that's more the focus than actual production. Not being negative as it's awesome work.
 
  #133  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sirnixalot View Post
The renderings are cool and everything but it seems like that's more the focus than actual production. Not being negative as it's awesome work.
To be honest thats correct. Things are going slowly for sure. I had a bit of a problem with one of my moulds resulting in completly 4 destroyed charge pipes. Mould is redesigned and so far everything looks good. Just imagine the time lost and money from that! On the other hand its part of the game! I am uploading the designs as they will be in my website (bought a domain name). The amount of detail behind the scenes is a lot especially when its actually one man show ! I am trying to capture that and put it on words or ... fotos .I hope I will not have the same problem and we will see actual results soon ! But for now I will upload detailed designs and try to explain anything that I missed.
 
  #134  
Old 04-11-2019, 06:18 AM
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Hello guys latest update: I installed a prototype heatshield, from glass fiber, a carbon fiber bracket (with a core material) for the charge pipe and the stainless steel brackets for the heatshield (only 1 can be seen in the fotos)

Carbon fiber bracket. It is used to support the charge pipe assembly and uses the OEM mounting points on the gearbox. It is 4mm thick and so stiff that makes the whole assembly so rigid. Couldn't be happier with how it works. I also have the same bracket in stainless steel but..... i prefer the carbon fiber one

That's the glass fiber prototype shield. I made a test part just to be sure everything fits as it should. Here you see the shield over the throttle body. The prototype is a bit thicker than the final part, 3 mm glass fiber over 1,5 mm carbon fiber.

And that's the 3d model of the heatshield in various angles:

Carbon fiber bracket is on. Excuse the ugly bolt (It will be changed for an allen head in black colour to match the rest) , zip tie (proper hose clip on it's way), blue silicone hose (I will order black )and the dust (car was seating for more than 1 month in a very dusty environment) !!

Just a random photo while trying to capture the no step design.

And.... Heat shield on I am very happy with the fitment, already took the car out for a test drive, everything is fine.
I uploaded many photos so you can see how it fits.





This one is one of my favorite as it shows how it follows the engine lines and completely shields everything :



The heatshield is supported from two stainless steel brackets attached to the vehicle chassis and not on the charge pipe. That way the charge pipe-air filter assembly can move separate from the heatshield. Below you can see the one bracket (I didn't take foto of the second one) using an existing thread that was on the chassis.

And ... some photos from the detailed assembly-design , showcasing the whole kit:







About the charge pipe itself, I have a finished one that needs some sanding and clear coat. I think you will like the next updates a lot !
So what do you think guys? Do you like it so far?
 
  #135  
Old 04-11-2019, 07:29 AM
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Thats a lot of work done, but it seems like you're trying to re-design every component under the hood instead if just the charge pipe. Honestly people would be happy buying the charge pipe alone since its already proven to work. SO why not sell those and then as other components are tested they can purchase them to work in conjunction with the charge pipe they already have on their car?

Not to be negative but its like the prototypes of the supra that they never release into production they just keep on adding and adding and then 20 years later they finally release one and its nothing like what the masses wanted. Just a thought.
 
  #136  
Old 04-11-2019, 07:35 AM
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Looks good
 
  #137  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:22 AM
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trying to re-design every component under the hood instead if just the charge pipe
The way I designed the charge pipe is so that achieves the best flow characteristics, meaning smooth transitional airflow, tapered designed and increased volume. In order to achieve these a relocation of the throttle body is needed. Then in order to fit a high flow air filter that meets the average flow characteristics of a car with 16% pulley a billet adapter was designed firstly to eliminate any step between filter and throttle body and secondly to accommodate the enlarge diameter. A proper designed intake should be separated from any heat source in order to keep intake temperatures low thus having a more dense air going towards your sc inlet. That's why a heat shield is needed.

people would be happy buying the charge pipe alone since its already proven to work
The charge pipe is still under development. Yes boost figures seems to go up with the charge pipe even without a heatshield. But with the heatshield boost increased even more. It is a complete package, engineered to give maximum efficiency. I will not cut any corner on it's development. If I have to design-produce another part just to make everything to work as it should be I would do it.

SO why not sell those
Don't forget that everything is in prototyping stage, development and testing. I am sharing all these details (and I really thank the forum and all of you guys for letting me doing that) and data not only for people to see what I am doing but mainly so that they can understand what goes behind the scenes, the amount of effort and the thinking process of a product like that.

then as other components are tested they can purchase them to work in conjunction with the charge pipe they already have on their car?
Yes you could drive with only the carbon fiber charge pipe(I did that for many thousands kilometers) but as I said it is a kit focus 100% on efficiency without any sacrifice. None of these parts work with OEM intake parts or with the oem charge pipe. Something else, this kit is NOT just an intake. It is an intake plus a charge pipe.

Not to be negative but its like the prototypes of the supra that they never release into production they just keep on adding and adding and then 20 years later they finally release one.
A well though component takes time until it is ready. There are many steps before a component becomes product and it is ready to be called product. The more precise, complex, efficient you want to be the more effort and time it will take. Yes you can make a heatshield out of metal, put an filter and say it is an intake or go over the top and complete redesign everything. It's all about choices.


and its nothing like what the masses wanted. Just a thought
Masses? I thought it is pretty clear that this project it is not to be produced by thousands...(We are already into production stage ?? !! I wish that to happen ! it takes a lot of effort until you reach that point) If that was the case I wouldn't select carbon fiber as material (as that increase cost) and I wouldn't go over the top with fitment, plug and play, efficiency etc (that increase cost as well). I understand it is hard to please everyone but the only thing I want is to design and engineer a truly complete component that outcomes OEM standards.

Not to be negative
Dont worry !! I enjoy the conversation ! Talking to people will help me improve myself and also share knowledge on how I design-engineer parts
 
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  #138  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:04 PM
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Very impressive work man. Looking forward to the next big update with more impressive data I am sure. I hope I still have the car when this is released haha. It is quite a process this project but I'm sure going to be worth it in the end.
 
  #139  
Old 04-13-2019, 05:29 PM
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Still looks great! Happy to see that you're making progress from when we spoke on Facebook. I'm still with the other guy in that I wish you'd kept the OE throttle body location and sold it as a stand-alone part!
 
  #140  
Old 04-13-2019, 11:54 PM
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Yea, seems to be getting into overkill.
All the work is defiantly appreciated, but...

One big thing, If it were me, I'd very much prefer directed cowl air rather than from the little opening in the core support. Still much warm to hot air available to enter the filter area.

Main inlet tube and supports...yea, but not the air filter as is.

Mike
 
  #141  
Old 04-14-2019, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by OCR View Post
Yea, seems to be getting into overkill.
All the work is defiantly appreciated, but...

One big thing, If it were me, I'd very much prefer directed cowl air rather than from the little opening in the core support. Still much warm to hot air available to enter the filter area.

Main inlet tube and supports...yea, but not the air filter as is.

Mike
Still much warm to hot air available to enter the filter area.
Hot air ? The heatshield surrounds the air filter. Main sources of hot air: intercooler horn and radiator (it seem like many people forget that !!). The heatshield blocks hot air from any direction (especially these two). It is nearly a complete closed box as it is extended up to the bonnet (there will be always some gap for clearance, but I did put a rubber grommet all around ) . This is the main reason why I 3D scanned the engine bay. With 3D scanning you can create an organic design that follows the lines of the engine bay. Additionally the air filter is as close as possible to the throttle body (without any step geometry interfering or creating turbulence ) resulting in less pressure drop due to less piping and geometry changes.

Yea, seems to be getting into overkill.
I agree up to a point. In my mind there are many details to deal with (eg materials, colours , looks etc that's overkill and for sure doesn't increase efficient) but in order to design this system in a specific way (as efficient as possible, without modifying OEM components, plug and play fitment) you have to design-produce auxiliary parts. Ok maybe that's overkill as well but come on so what if is over the top !? let's see how it will turn up
 
  #142  
Old 04-14-2019, 05:29 AM
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Put a NACA duct on the hood next to the IC inlet. Problem solved. Or work on the radiator support inlet from the front upper grille. Both offer improved air intake solutions, and a ram-air setup will work better as well as bleed off the remainder of the air to cool the engine bay. Minor work would be needed to improve exit flow from the bay (routed through the exhaust tunnel or behind the wheels would be most ideal. If into the exhaust tunnel that would have the be managed on underbody paneling, assuming there's some form of diffuser down there).

I think this is a great idea. Personally I did a fair amount of work to my OEM unit - filled all ridges inside with epoxy (JB Weld), smoothed it all out to 400g, ported and polished it as best I could, cleaned up the mfg. burrs on the outside, and finally wrapped it in DEI-branded thermal insulation tape. If this were available as just an OE-unit replacement, I'd have skipped all that, bought this, wrapped it, and enjoyed a laminar-flow inlet tube MUCH unlike the OE unit.

I hope the OP doesn't mind, but I'll throw a pic up of my modified unit (again, I'd MUCH rather have the OP's solution if it were a drop-in replacement) - https://imgur.com/t0Hv4ov - actually here's a short video of me spinning it around showing what I've done (final product for this iteration of the build).
 
  #143  
Old 04-14-2019, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by veedubpat View Post
Still looks great! Happy to see that you're making progress from when we spoke on Facebook. I'm still with the other guy in that I wish you'd kept the OE throttle body location and sold it as a stand-alone part!
Happy to see that you're making progress
A bit slow I can admit

I'm still with the other guy in that I wish you'd kept the OE throttle body location and sold it as a stand-alone part!
Keeping the OEM location will result in increased pressure drop and more turbulence, that was the main reason why I changed the throttle body location. Even without the heatshield, boost pressure when up and IATs were very close to OEM setup.... with an exposed air filter !!! Sooo the charge pipe works even alone. I used it in my car for more than 5000 kilometers (daily driven) with no problem with IATs.
That's mainly because of the design of the charge pipe and new flow characteristics (flow characteristics can affect these two parameters a lot). With the heatshield things are even better with more boost pressure due to lower IATs. I uploaded these data some pages before.
I will upload ofcourse new data with all the components finished (in their final form).

But as I always say lets see it finished with more data As I said the next update it will be a big one providing as much info as possible .
 
  #144  
Old 04-14-2019, 05:41 AM
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So while I do appreciate that the concept of boost pressure rising appearing to be a good thing, in actuality it isn't. "Boost" as a measurement "PSI" is just measuring restriction. The ideal setup is the LEAST amount of "boost" (internal air pressure, or PSI) producing the same levels (or greater) of power. So to say, if I had a motor producing 220whp at 18psi, and then I installed a BVH with some good porting, with tuning, I would expect to product that same 220whp at a reduced "boost" level, because the head is flowing more air aka producing less restriction.

This is also important because with a SC car, one shouldn't be expecting a variation in SC output, so as pressure goes up, volume goes down, and vice versa. - this aerodynamic principle I'm less solid on, as I'm not actually a degree'd engineer, however it's a common principle that can be observed with your car's window: a little open, high velocity (pressure) / low volume, a lot open, low velocity (pressure) / high volume. More air = more power. My consideration is that you may be increasing velocity enough pre-blower to where the IC doens't exhibit as much of a pressure drop (same drop, but starting from a higher point, so less final deficit) and thus allows the head to see more actual air.

IATs and dyno graphs to see where power is gained / lost (peak is pointless) will really tell whether this is worthwhile.


It's an interesting project, and I wish I had the skill with Solidworks to partake myself.

Though honestly, I just wanted it because the plastic piece there is a POS and designed by accountants, not the performance dept.
 
  #145  
Old 04-14-2019, 01:21 PM
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As you said only (more) data can tell us no matter what I write or I feel doesn't count, I know. Next updates are going to be interesting
I will keep you updated guys !
 
  #146  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:11 PM
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I still consider it prototype but as it is so close to how I wanted so lets call it pre-production model You will see I painted black the outlet (inlet of Supercharger) as the finish wasn't so nice there and I wanted it to be finished ! Still small changes but mainly concerning the finish.
Next steps:
Thanks to a friend of mine that has a stock intake and charge pipe in his car, we will to some dyno pulls and logging before and after . Additionally I will upload some photos from the installation as his car is way cooler than mine It might take a bit of time to do all of that as Easter approaches, different working hours for both of us etc
By using his car and not mine I can have a more objective opinion-comments about the charge pipe as he uses it daily.



So far : Countless design (CAD modelling) hours and air flow (CFD) simulations, 8 3D printed prototypes (3 in the picture), 2 engine 3D scans and 2 pre-production carbon fiber models. (I haven't include the 3d models and prototypes of the heatshield... )
I put side by side the OEM ,some printed models and the latest carbon fiber charge pipe so not only you can see the difference between stock and the new design but also how from version to version the design changes a bit.

If you check in the bottom of the picture I also made a logo ! ok... I had a graphic designer to do it




I hope you like it guys, I will update you as soon as I can ! Have a nice day (here is 9 am) or night !
 

Last edited by P.E; 04-17-2019 at 11:26 PM.
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  #147  
Old 04-18-2019, 11:50 AM
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So amazing to see this come to production version, fantastic efforts and many hats off to you. Have a great Easter weekend and look forward to your stick car testing results. Excellent stuff
 
  #148  
Old 04-28-2019, 06:18 AM
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Very well done sir..

Slow hand clap!!

( Also Sign me up for one)
 
  #149  
Old 05-01-2019, 12:23 PM
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Well done PE, like the logo as well. Since Joshua is signed up for one, you can put me down for one as well. Definitely get a soul clap for this
 
  #150  
Old 05-02-2019, 12:15 PM
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Thank you all of you for the kind words.

Update time !!!
A friend of mine was kind enough to give me his car for the back to back test. I also wanted his comments on the way the car feels with the new charge pipe.


1st Measurement (OEM setup):

Fuel: 100 RON

Temperature: 17 degrees Celsius

Gear used: 5th

Closed bonnet.

The car was equipped with : Gp intercooler, 550 cc injectors, Bytetronik tune, high flow cat, exhaust, mynes v2 headers, detroid bypass, 16% sc pulley, stock charge pipe and intake.

And the number was ..... 163 at the wheels.


2nd Measurement:

Fuel:100 RON

Temperature: 21 degrees Celsius (by the end of the dyno section temp climb at 24 )

Gear used 5th.

Closed bonnet.

Power: 174 at the wheels (Am I happy ? No …. See why below….)

The car was equipped with : gp intercooler, 550 cc injectors, bytetronik tune, high flow cat, exhaust, mynes v2 headers, detroid bypass, 16% sc pulley, carbon fiber charge pipe and fiberglass heatshield.



I did 3 pulls each time. 3 with OEM setup and 3 with the new charge pipe. Unfortunately when measuring the carbon charge pipe the temperature was 21 (instead of 17) and by the end of the 3rd dyno section the temperature was 24 degrees Celsius outside. Car felt unwilling to rev in the first pull, second pull a bit better, third again a bit better…. Ok that was weird, I didn’t like it…. With this setup the car has done nearly 500km, maybe it needs some adaptation time ? I don't know.
Below you can see the graphs and.... my problem....




I became sad and upset initially…. The number peaks only at the rev limit, something completely unacceptable for me . I don’t chase numbers …. But the overall behavior. AND THIS THE WEIRD part …. The car feels amazing with the pipe !! It has torque from down low all the way to the rev limit, it pulls hard with aircon on and 42 degrees Celsius outside temperature. My friend couldn’t believe it , he felt the same, he told me “especially in the lower rev range there is a big difference, I like it way more now “!!!

The technician in the dyno, before checking the graphs he said to me “ it feels so much smoother and eager to pull” !!!! AWWWWW I will go crazy !!!

I did log the car during the dyno pulls and the logs say something completely different…. I think at least ...

IAT’s are down !! with 4 degrees Celsius more and the car heat-shocked in the first run.

Maximum IAT’s are down. Average IAT’s are down….







PSI values are up and the average psi values…

Air mass is up





So that's my situation now.. My friend wants to keep the pipe because .... the car feels better Me... I believe the car need a retune... something is weird, or it needs more time, as in every pull it was better and better. Maybe I will do some pulls next week just to see. I am also planning to make a carbon fiber reinforced 3dprinted version, as changes will be faster (no need to wait for the carbon fiber moulds etc) in order to change the charge pipe outlet as I feel that can change the overall outcome .

What do you think ? Ideas, comments and help are more than welcome !
Have an amazing night or day !
 

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