Drivetrain Water/Meth Injection for B46/B48

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Old 03-12-2018, 03:11 PM
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Water/Meth Injection for B46/B48

Hi guys,
Our 3rd Gen MINI platform needs to gain more knowledge/support on Water/Meth. 91 octane in CA, AZ, NV is sooo poor its not even funny.

Companies such as Cobb tune 3 maps/"areas" (93 octane, 91 octane, ACN91 octane). Unfortunately, I live in CA and NV(work) so I am stuck with poor gas everywhere that even contains 10-15% ethanol. E85 mixes were probably the best thing to do to raise octane, but there are limited stations and ethanol content is never consistent. Gas mileage also drops, it can get annoying doing it every tank, and you need to be careful and ask your tuner what is acceptable. Bytetronik told me 2-3 gal was OK but you need to ask them yourselves if you plan on doing so.

I ran meth on my Stage 3 R56 and my car loved it. Manic made a very powerful tune for that 1.6L with the help of meth injection.

With my experience on my F56, the car hates ACN91 fuel when tuned (same with my 2 R56's). With my Bytetronik tune, after 5k rpm, the car drops boost/power significantly. With my Evolve tune, after 5k rpm, the car also drops boost/power significantly. When I added octane on both tunes, they both pulled much better and the car felt very happy. (Likely the car pulling boost and timing because of low octane).

For now, I told Evolve to lower torque target significantly because of this bad fuel so I can be on the safe side. (Afraid of blowing another motor lol). This is why the new map dropped like 70wtq or so because of my request if you saw my new dyno sheet.

I spoke to the idea of meth to multiple tuners:
Manic - Loves meth. (I wish they had an easy tuning solution)
Bytetronik - Says no. Too risky with tuning (I understand)
Burger - Integrates with JB4 with progressive meth maps. But its rare seeing an F56 owner use it.
Evolve - Recommends I use it since the fuel is so bad

My plan is to order another JB4 because it will act as a very intelligent Meth Controller and failsafe. For example, I can control meth values (ex: how much, rpm, psi etc) via the JB4 software and if there is an issue (ex: Out of meth) or issues not involving meth (ex: AFR lean, Boost over safety, Fuel Pressure Low, Fuel Trim Variance) then the JB4 will bump to a safety map to protect everything. I love this idea so I may just order another JB4 for peace of mind.

Questions we need answered:
1) Any meth adapters/spacers in the market for easy nozzle install?
2) If not, where is a good location to drill for a nozzle?
3) What size nozzle(s)? How much meth does the car like?
4) Any tanks that fit nicely under the trunk cover? (especially if you have the storage upgrade with the adjustable lid)
5) Any room under the car to mount the pump?
6) What tuners will support meth injection?

I think I'm going to put funding for my intercooler on hold and focus on this meth project. Meth will lower IATs significantly and raise octane significantly. For example, on my R56, IAT would be 85 degrees and when meth started spraying, IAT's would drop to 50 degrees.

Let me know your thoughts!
 

Last edited by johntotah94; 03-12-2018 at 03:13 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:50 PM
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Does anyone know what the end of the factory charge pipe looks like?

Can anyone confirm if this may or may not work? Same variant, just the 6cyl motor. Would be very very convenient if I can use this or make something similar to this!

http://www.burgertuning.com/B58_methanol_spacer.html
 
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:25 PM
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Looking at B46/B48 intake manifold and B58 intake manifold. It appears that it SHOULD work but not sure if I want to take the risk and order one yet. lol
Hopefully BMW saved money and kept the same design.

What do you guys think?
 
Attached Thumbnails Water/Meth Injection for B46/B48-screen-shot-2018-03-12-at-10.09.09-pm.png   Water/Meth Injection for B46/B48-screen-shot-2018-03-12-at-10.09.23-pm.png  
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:28 PM
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1,2) Just get FTP aluminium charge pipe, it already has a bung at the right position (after the intercooler).
3) Terry recommended a single CM7 for our application.
4,5 ) You could mount a custom tank under the false floor and mount the pump where the toolbox is (take out the foam). Route the lines through the rubber grommet under the toolbox area (you would run wiring for valved exhaust through the same grommet).
6) In my opinion your solution with the JB4 as a controller is the best route for safety and simplicity. You'll have to decide are you adding meth just for cooling and octane booster (safety reasons) to your AKI91 gas situation or are you trying to add more boost/power above the usual Stage 1-level boost of 18-20 psi.

If you are just adding it for safety, then you don't really need to retune because the car will adjust timing and fueling to your lower IAT automatically. If you want more boost then talk to the tuner and see if they are willing to push the stock B48/46 further than the current "standard".
Another big drawback if you're tuned for meth, you'll have to run meth all the time. Until someone comes out with a map switching device like Manic's SPS then you'll have to constantly monitor the meth tank.
The car's fueling seems to be able to support higher boost than Stage 1. I'm seeing high 10s AFR at WOT with Bytetronik. Not to mention the extra fueling you'll get from the meth. But can the rest of the car take the abuse? Stock turbo efficiency limits? I know for my AT car more boost is useless because the tranny wouldn't be able to take more power anyway...
 
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BadakVT View Post
1,2) Just get FTP aluminium charge pipe, it already has a bung at the right position (after the intercooler).
3) Terry recommended a single CM7 for our application.
4,5 ) You could mount a custom tank under the false floor and mount the pump where the toolbox is (take out the foam). Route the lines through the rubber grommet under the toolbox area (you would run wiring for valved exhaust through the same grommet).
6) In my opinion your solution with the JB4 as a controller is the best route for safety and simplicity. You'll have to decide are you adding meth just for cooling and octane booster (safety reasons) to your AKI91 gas situation or are you trying to add more boost/power above the usual Stage 1-level boost of 18-20 psi.

If you are just adding it for safety, then you don't really need to retune because the car will adjust timing and fueling to your lower IAT automatically. If you want more boost then talk to the tuner and see if they are willing to push the stock B48/46 further than the current "standard".
Another big drawback if you're tuned for meth, you'll have to run meth all the time. Until someone comes out with a map switching device like Manic's SPS then you'll have to constantly monitor the meth tank.
The car's fueling seems to be able to support higher boost than Stage 1. I'm seeing high 10s AFR at WOT with Bytetronik. Not to mention the extra fueling you'll get from the meth. But can the rest of the car take the abuse? Stock turbo efficiency limits? I know for my AT car more boost is useless because the tranny wouldn't be able to take more power anyway...
Yeah without a question I will use a JB4 to be my meth controller. So much better than my previously complicated Aquamist setup on my R56 and more complex than my Devil's own set up with my R56. Aquamist would go into safety but not show why easily. With the JB4 it will tell me why it bumped to a safety map and I can modify set points via the app. Thats cool!

I will look into that charge pipe, anything that comes pretapped will make life easier for me (and us). Seeing if burger will let me test that spacer as it seems like a simple and easy solution.

Also. 10s on AFR on WOT? Isn't that a little too rich especially being direct injection?

DervTech has something very exciting. They support map switching on the fly. Stock map = Eco. 250hp = Mid. 300hp = Sport. That is awesome. I just wish they had an easy way to load their maps. Same issue as Manic.
 
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by johntotah94 View Post
Yeah without a question I will use a JB4 to be my meth controller. So much better than my previously complicated Aquamist setup on my R56 and more complex than my Devil's own set up with my R56. Aquamist would go into safety but not show why easily. With the JB4 it will tell me why it bumped to a safety map and I can modify set points via the app. Thats cool!

I will look into that charge pipe, anything that comes pretapped will make life easier for me (and us). Seeing if burger will let me test that spacer as it seems like a simple and easy solution.

Also. 10s on AFR on WOT? Isn't that a little too rich especially being direct injection?

DervTech has something very exciting. They support map switching on the fly. Stock map = Eco. 250hp = Mid. 300hp = Sport. That is awesome. I just wish they had an easy way to load their maps. Same issue as Manic.
Yeah, I'm seeing 10.8s @ WOT near redline. I personally think it's too rich as well, especially for DI. It's most probably because of my high IAT (climate). For now I'm ok with it since I'm running a de-cat. Would rather be too rich than too lean with the Stage-1 anyway. Probably could gain a bit more power and gas mileage with leaner AFR though. Let's see what the other's logs are looking like. Good luck with the meth journey! I'd play it safe and use it as cooling and octane booster until we know more about the engine's limits.
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BadakVT View Post
Yeah, I'm seeing 10.8s @ WOT near redline. I personally think it's too rich as well, especially for DI. It's most probably because of my high IAT (climate). For now I'm ok with it since I'm running a de-cat. Would rather be too rich than too lean with the Stage-1 anyway. Probably could gain a bit more power and gas mileage with leaner AFR though. Let's see what the other's logs are looking like. Good luck with the meth journey! I'd play it safe and use it as cooling and octane booster until we know more about the engine's limits.
Thank you. I would not push these cars too far. I would stay away from bigger turbos and more aggressive tuning. The car is basically at its limit/very close. Spark plugs should definitely be changed (Stock Champion Plugs SUCK!). And next weaker points are the clutch and rods/pistons.

I believe my car was boosting over target on my BT tune which would explain why the car made so much torque, my explanation of power like an on/off switch (smacked hard!), why the clutch was slipping, and why it broke piston and snapped a rod. That is my best guess/theory.

With the new tuning. I still have not experienced a slipping clutch (its the same clutch). So I believe it was something with over boosting or spiking at that time since it happened at a low RPM.

But with this new motor. Stage 1 tune, meth, exhaust and that should be it for my car. Maybe intercooler.. but that is now on hold with meth coming

Maybe more people will join the ride! Debating on what tank I want that will fit nicely under the trunk lid...
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by johntotah94 View Post
I believe my car was boosting over target on my BT tune which would explain why the car made so much torque, my explanation of power like an on/off switch (smacked hard!), why the clutch was slipping, and why it broke piston and snapped a rod. That is my best guess/theory.
All of that could have been caused by your overly large 3" downpipe. Too large of a downpipe can cause overboosting at low rpm's. You haven't run that downpipe with your evolve tune (could experience the same issue's if you did) and I bet their downpipe won't be 3" for good reason.

Good luck with the meth journey. The JB4 can do some pretty cool stuff with it.

This might be useful: https://www.cravenspeed.com/throttle...6-mini-cooper/
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BadakVT View Post
1,2) Just get FTP aluminium charge pipe, it already has a bung at the right position (after the intercooler).
Does FTP even exist anymore? I am trying to load the website and it no longer works. Was looking online and two out of the three websites say the part is no longer available.

Would love to do this upgrade because in my R56 remember this actually making a difference in reducing turbo lag.
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by hadjiikong View Post
Does FTP even exist anymore? I am trying to load the website and it no longer works. Was looking online and two out of the three websites say the part is no longer available.

Would love to do this upgrade because in my R56 remember this actually making a difference in reducing turbo lag.
Try ebay, many sellers are selling it.
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by trentiles View Post
All of that could have been caused by your overly large 3" downpipe. Too large of a downpipe can cause overboosting at low rpm's. You haven't run that downpipe with your evolve tune (could experience the same issue's if you did) and I bet their downpipe won't be 3" for good reason.

Good luck with the meth journey. The JB4 can do some pretty cool stuff with it.

This might be useful: https://www.cravenspeed.com/throttle...6-mini-cooper/
Thanks for the link! Burger said they wonít allow me to test theirs. And they wonít allow me to purchase one and return it if it doesnít work. That one looks promising.

Also yes, it must have been the downpipe. Trust me. We have talked about my custom build on the phone for about an hour and tuning. Along with hundreds of emails. I talked about the use of the exhaust without the tune. They said itís harmless. And they were interested in the build. Iím not here to fight with them but thatís what happened. The past is the past and Iíve put it all behind me.


 
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by hadjiikong View Post
Does FTP even exist anymore? I am trying to load the website and it no longer works. Was looking online and two out of the three websites say the part is no longer available.

Would love to do this upgrade because in my R56 remember this actually making a difference in reducing turbo lag.
i like the idea of the spacer. Simpler to install and cheaper. If that doesnít work out then I will look at the piping. That looks promising but a pain in the butt!
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:31 AM
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You certainly bring it up every chance you can despite saying "the past is the past"

Spacer is definitely the way to go. I'm sure if you needed it cravenspeed would add another port if you also wanted to run a boost gauge off it along with meth port.
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by trentiles View Post
You certainly bring it up every chance you can despite saying "the past is the past"
yeah. He was asking about the limits of the motor. And I believe I know whatís next on the weak list. Lmao
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by trentiles View Post
You certainly bring it up every chance you can despite saying "the past is the past"

Spacer is definitely the way to go. I'm sure if you needed it cravenspeed would add another port if you also wanted to run a boost gauge off it along with meth port.
interesting. Thatís cool to offer that.
Iím hoping boost of JB4 will be good enough.
But not sure what the reaction time is. Lol
we will see......
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by trentiles View Post
Spacer is definitely the way to go. I'm sure if you needed it cravenspeed would add another port if you also wanted to run a boost gauge off it along with meth port.
According to Jeff Howerton, that is not a good location for the nozzle. He told me to mount the nozzle as far from the intake manifold as possible (on the cold side charge pipe).
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by toyopet View Post
According to Jeff Howerton, that is not a good location for the nozzle. He told me to mount the nozzle as far from the intake manifold as possible (on the cold side charge pipe).
Hmm. I would think that is the best place. I wonder why. Unless he wants it before a sensor or something to see the IAT drop.
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by toyopet View Post
According to Jeff Howerton, that is not a good location for the nozzle. He told me to mount the nozzle as far from the intake manifold as possible (on the cold side charge pipe).
or maybe it gives it more time to atomize...
not sure. But I donít want to drill like I did with my R56
 
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:41 PM
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Where is the Intake air temp sensor on these cars?
 
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:19 AM
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I actually didn't know there was a charge pipe solution for the f55/56 until this thread. The FTP pipes look like a great solution and a big plus is it includes a meth bung. I also agree the cravenspeed spacer is not a good solution. The optimal placement is furthest possible location upstream from the throttle body but post intercooler. This allows more time to atomize as well as giving you additional time to cool the charge air.
 
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by johntotah94 View Post
Where is the Intake air temp sensor on these cars?
T-map sensor is circled in this image.
 
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:16 AM
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IIRC the T-Map sensor monitors boost, not IA temperature.
 
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by vetsvette View Post
IIRC the T-Map sensor monitors boost, not IA temperature.
BMW N54 and N55 have this also. There is a T-MAP sensor and a MAP sensor. T-map measures charge air temperature. Since this engine is a bmw developed engine they are using the same method for engine calibration.

MAP sensor is located in the middle of the intake manifold.
 
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by charrigan View Post
T-map sensor is circled in this image.
The above is accurate. Seems like the Craven Speed spacer would be installed after the charge air temperature sensor. If that is the case then the FTP pipe would be a much better solution.

 
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by charrigan View Post
BMW N54 and N55 have this also. There is a T-MAP sensor and a MAP sensor. T-map measures charge air temperature. Since this engine is a bmw developed engine they are using the same method for engine calibration.

MAP sensor is located in the middle of the intake manifold.
If the T-Map sensor measures charge air temp, why does the NM Power Module and Dinan Sport hook up to the T-Map to spoof the ECU into adding more boost?
 

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