Drivetrain Water to air intercooler
2nd Gear
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This is in response to the grassroots comment. I have found the belts I need, the problem is that I am pushing much more power than any other mini race car out there, especially the grassroots car.
Last edited by clevy; Jul 6, 2004 at 06:44 AM.
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: wherever
Originally Posted by mars31971
I did not attend Phil Wicks accademy while running the practice sessions, I also pushed the car very hard during these sessions to see if I could have any failures of any type. As I said before I pushed every shift point to red line at 7200 RPM's. Not saying that racing wouldn't make a difference but I feal I pushed it as hard as you would in a race during my practice sessions.
insurance) :smile:
I think you are missing the point:
19% needs more testing before it is ready for the track
You drove well and your car was fine, but it was not the same as race conditions.
Christian, Don and Randy all lost belts under race conditions. Some lost more than others. The intercooler (FMD) worked great, the cars (all) were fast, and the belts(all) broke.
The Classic Mini's won.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
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From: Lansdale, PA
Originally Posted by mars31971
All data is from the OBD II port, the cars computer system, so the numbers are real world numbers as is found in the engine itself. I will be doing outlet and inlet temp readings of the intercooler itself this weekend. These numbers will be even lower temps after intercooler because of the air has not reached the intake. The intake temp is the most important because this is what the engine sees not the temp just after the intercooler. The system that Kenne Bell uses for the Miata is bassically the same, the core is the same as is the pump running the system. The cores are proven to be 86% efficient and thusly the system can be no less efficient. Again I will do air temps before and after intercooler soon and will post results, again these numbers are not real world numbers though but I will be glad to post them for you.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Plymouth, MN
What is the normal MCS ignition advance?
Does the MCS REALLY run 7-degrees ATDC ignition timing? I can't imagine that's correct, but I read it that way from:
I'm probably misunderstanding something here, so I thought I'd check.
Here is a 2002 MINI Cooper 5-speed showing up to a 30-degree ignition advance.
That means I should get 30 degrees times 4 HP-per-degree = 120 HP increase!!! (Of course I'm just joshing)
I have some info on engine timing, if you retard ignition timing by 4 degrees you loose 16 HP. With the stock intercooler temp readings we were getting we saw a 7 degree retard in ignition timing. So that would give a 28 HP loss with stock intercooler. We are seeing approx. 14 degrees of advance timing.
Here is a 2002 MINI Cooper 5-speed showing up to a 30-degree ignition advance.
That means I should get 30 degrees times 4 HP-per-degree = 120 HP increase!!! (Of course I'm just joshing)
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: NY NY
what is needed is a timing advance vs engine temp (coolant temp?) curve and then a hp vs rpm for several settings of timing advance.
The implication would seem to be that highest hp would be at full 30 degree advance; if the advanced gets reduced by 4 degrees due to engine temp (to 26 degrees total advance), the hp gets reduced by 16hp, according to mars.
but some confusion about this statement from mars: "With the stock intercooler temp readings we were getting we saw a 7 degree retard in ignition timing. So that would give a 28 HP loss with stock intercooler. We are seeing approx. 14 degrees of advance timing. So that should help put into perspective what the FMD intercooler is doing for you in terms of more HP."
this part is clear: when things heat up, the stock intercooler can only reduce temps so much, but not enough to maintain full advance. the result is a reduction of advance by 7 degrees, to 23 degrees for a hp loss of (16)*7/4=28hp. the "we are seeing 14 degrees of advance" is the murky part.
does mars mean stock literally is showing 7 degrees retarded? and the new unit cools enough to run literally 14 degrees advanced, but not the full 30 degrees advanced?
The implication would seem to be that highest hp would be at full 30 degree advance; if the advanced gets reduced by 4 degrees due to engine temp (to 26 degrees total advance), the hp gets reduced by 16hp, according to mars.
but some confusion about this statement from mars: "With the stock intercooler temp readings we were getting we saw a 7 degree retard in ignition timing. So that would give a 28 HP loss with stock intercooler. We are seeing approx. 14 degrees of advance timing. So that should help put into perspective what the FMD intercooler is doing for you in terms of more HP."
this part is clear: when things heat up, the stock intercooler can only reduce temps so much, but not enough to maintain full advance. the result is a reduction of advance by 7 degrees, to 23 degrees for a hp loss of (16)*7/4=28hp. the "we are seeing 14 degrees of advance" is the murky part.
does mars mean stock literally is showing 7 degrees retarded? and the new unit cools enough to run literally 14 degrees advanced, but not the full 30 degrees advanced?
Last edited by jlm; Jul 6, 2004 at 10:08 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: a canyon, south Bay Area
With re to jlm's request, Trippy, didn't the data I sent to you for the thermostat thread contain info about timing as well? I'm too busy to go dig it up now... jlm, if I find it later, I'll send it over to you via email.
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From: Plymouth, MN
Originally Posted by TonyB
didn't the data I sent to you for the thermostat thread contain info about timing as well?
Here it is
Just look at that ignition timing!!!!!!!
It looks like the MCS idles at 14 to 16 degrees AFTER TDC!!!
I see a range of (-16.5) to +38.5 degrees for a total range of 55 degrees!!!
WOW! I'm impressed the engine can run over such a wide range of ignition timing.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Plymouth, MN
Ask and ye-shall receive...
Originally Posted by jlm
what is needed is a timing advance vs engine temp (coolant temp?) curve
Is does look like the range of ignition advance is restricted to a narrower range while the engine is warming up.
Somewhere right in the 180-degree-F range, they get to their full range.
So, it's not clear to me why running a colder thermostat would help performance. (Sorry, that's a differen thread)
Last edited by Trippy; Jul 6, 2004 at 02:21 PM.
6th Gear
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Thread Starter
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2nd Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Aurora, Colorado
Honestly I may have misinterpereted some numbers myself that were given to me by my engineer. I will have him look at the forum and see if he can not clarify some things for me and everyone else. The last thing I would want would be to misrepresent myself.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
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From: Lansdale, PA
Originally Posted by clevy
Andy@rosstech why do you have to bash everyone's product? FMD has put many hours of developement into this intercooler just so that they would be sure that it is the best intercooler available. It is people like you who hide behind the anonymity of the internet and ruin other peoples ideas and products by bashing them. Just because you think you know more than everyone else on this site doesnt mean that you do.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Lansdale, PA
Originally Posted by clevy
I just dont like how you demand more and more numbers when the most realistic figures are right in front of you. When they tap into the plenum they will see even better numbers than what they have already posted.
Feel free to ignore posts from me if you don't want to hear what I have to say.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
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Originally Posted by mars31971
The radiator for the system is in front of the car so not possible. The only way it would be possible is if the intercooler itself were to leak. There are several high temp, high pressure gaskets being used and the unit is put together with high temp, high pressure sealant as well. These unit are being used by Kenne Bell with zero failures to date.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
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Originally Posted by friedduck
mars and Andy seem to be getting along, so I don't see what the problem is.
I'm enjoying this one, it looks promising.
--Jeff
I'm enjoying this one, it looks promising.
--Jeff