Lets recap please...how many different intercoolers are there?
Air to air (alta)

Water to air (Destek, Laminova, and soon the one that started this thread?)

If others don't mind, can the people developing/testing/engineering/selling these products please try to sell them to us on this thread? I can't speak for everyone, but I'm in the market...

L

 

For Air to Air this is also GSR Motorsports (in England) about $700, and RDR who has not released theirs quite yet, but rumoured to be in the $600 range.

 

did anything come from that laminova design?

 

I think what came of it was that the folks that developed it came onto NAM to talk about it, got ripped to shreds by the usual suspects / all knowing experts here, and quietly went away. I don't blame them, but it's too bad that it happened.

I met the guys when I was at the East Meets West Mini show earlier in the year, and got a live demo. It was new, unique, innovative and an interesting design that's very different than the other offerings. Whether or not it provides good "bang for the buck" or any significant gains over other solutions is probably a good topic for debate, but I was sort of put off by the reception they got here -- I'm sure they were.

 

You may want to re-read this entire thread to see what actually happened.

 

MMM-kay.

 

We are still here. We are in the process of making a minor change to the air tube. My vehicle has had a couple unrelated issues arise that we will have resolved soon so that testing may continue and when the results are in I will post them. The system is working very well but we need more data to eliminate doubt that some may have.

 

having farted around with making larger a/a intercoolers, i am convinced that:


the limitation is the ability to supply cooling air to a top mount intercooler; no matter how big you go, this is going to hold you back. adding a front mount a/a intercooler would be a good solution, but it is a fitment mightmare.


the a/w has the same limitation re.cooling air, but in this case, you can remote mount the radiator to a much more efficient location. Adding an electric fan would do even more.

I keep thinking of those waits in line at the drags, heat soaking my intercooler and the burnout to heat the tires doing even more. Probably was down 15-20 hp at launch.

this wouldn't happen with a/w and and electric fan.

on the track, I don't see an a/w disadvantage; if you can get better airflow through the water radiator it will only cool the water and intake air even more and not have those heat soak issues.

I'm going to focus on whipping up something with my laminova cores!

 

Well…I decided to quit procrastinating and take the plunge by purchasing Randy Webb’s large front mount air-to-air intercooler. I did so knowing full well that this might not be the best unit for every conceivable situation, however, it appears that from this and other forums on the subject, there is no one type of intercooler that handily outperforms the other all of the time.

I felt that the air-to-air would suit my type of driving better. During my last couple of track sessions, where I was out about 35 minutes at a time, I experienced a gradual decrease in performance. It was not overly hot, in the lower 80’s, but it was obvious that the top mount stock unit was not able to keep up with conditions. I was not overly thrilled with the larger top mount units, though the numbers look promising, because it just doesn’t seem you can get enough airflow through them to make a big enough performance difference for the price. Just look at the Alta unit when it is installed with the hood down. More than half of the bonnet scoop is covered by the unit, so less than half of the air flow that existed before is now available to cool it.

I appreciate the discussion in this and other forums. I have no doubt that the proposed water-to-air units will be good solid units also. There are pros and cons of installing each and the merits of each. I do not want to get involved or portray the feeling that I am downgrading any of these and other potential units. I also applaud efforts by some forum members to hold vendors to demonstrate that their product produces the advertised improvements

I readily admit that I have no hard numbers (re:dyno) on this unit yet and don’t know that I will in the near term. I don’t trust the ability to get enough airflow through the dyno to feel 100% confident of the readings. I think this would affect air-to-water units also. One time numbers are not as important as repeatability. If I am doing this mod for the track, I want the same results lap after lap after lap. This is obviously a problem when trying to demonstrate numbers. What I do know are Randy’s measurements (1.5 psi drop from the stock unit and a max 150-degree temperature drop from supercharger outlet to intercooler outlet. He also has a Unichip solution for this mod with the other upgrades I have done, which is a plus. BTW, the “B” map is tremendous. Please call Randy with your questions. I’m happy to talk about the installation, which wasn’t what I would call completely smooth.

My completely anecdotal test, which I know will drive some of you nuts, was to run the car with the supercharger spooled up on the highway for about 20-25- minutes and immediately stop the car, raise the bonnet and put my hand on the supercharger outlet runner and the engine intake runner. I could not touch the outlet…it was too hot. The intake runner didn’t seem to be any warmer than ambient. I think everyone would agree that even though I have no hard numbers because I don’t have temp probes in the engine, the intercooler has to be doing something right with that kind of drop.

Yes, there is an improvement, but I didn’t buy this thing for around town. To me, that would have been a waste of money. I will have a better sense of the improvement over the next three weeks, as the car will be on the track and autocrossed . I’ll report back at that time, but again it will be perception over quantifiable numbers. If it helps (though I know it won’t to some), I am naturally skeptical of all mods.

 

Any plans to test the efficiency of that versus stock? That would only require a pair of $25 gauges (a pittance compared to the $2k+ you presumably paid for the IC). Did you notice any change in boost?

 

Not the full monty, but a few quick numbers for you Andy - the loss in pressure is about 1.5 max using an Autometer boost guage, and the temp drop compared to stock was an 88F drop on average, using the OBDII values with the same ambient conditions, same coolant and inlet temp, under full load, second gear.I did have an issue with one of the units having a bonding problem, where the carbon fiber piece seperated at a seam at the track. So far, it is an isolated case, and a replacement is already enroute. Just making sure everyone knows everything

Randy

PS - watch for future street/drag intercooler options in the near future with dedicated MINI castings and applications.

 

Thanks for the data, but that doesn't say anything about the thermal efficiency.

Have you measured the actual temperatures going into and out of the intercooler and compared them with ambient? It's remarkably simple and cheap to do:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...t=23248&page=2

 

do you attribute the pressure drop to flow restrictions or is it due to temp drop?

 

I have the intake and outlet numbers, and the drop across the unit is on average (obviously effected by load, inlet air temp, road speed, etc.) is 150F.


jlm,

There's no way I can differentiate to know, but I'd speculate that it is a combination - you can't have a greater temp drop without some pressure drop, and the unit core is certainly substantially larger.

Hope that helps!
Randy

 

What would those numbers be? If you post those numbers, along with the ambient temp, I'd be happy to calculate efficiency for you.

 

The highest numbers I've seen were at the track under full load:

Outlet: 248F
IAT: 100F
OAT: 83F

Hope that helps!
Randy

 

In that case:

Ei = (Inlet-Outlet)/(Inlet-Ambient)
Ei = (248-100)/(248-83)
Ei = 148/165
Ei = 89.7 %

Very good results indeed. What sort of temps did you see for the above three figures using the stock intercooler in similar conditions?

 

Roughly the same OAT and inlet temps yeilded an IAT of about 195F. This is extremely high, and only producable on the track. That would give you an IAT high enough to trip the ECU into rich mode, and that is with a 15% pulley. One of the reasons I personally shy away from the 19% - again a personal preference

Randy

 

are you saying your intercooler dropped the intake temp 95 degrees more than the stocker?


Are other people measuring intake air temps as high as 195 trackking their rigs? I I ever get mine out there again, I will be sure to report.

 

I seem to hit 130's IAT per by data-logging on the street, with ambient ranging from mid 70 to mid 80's. This was spirited, but only for short intervals; nothing like on the track. On a hotter day, and knowing how Randy pushes, I'm not surprised...

 

In that case:

Ei = (Inlet-Outlet)/(Inlet-Ambient)
Ei = (248-195)/(248-83)
Ei = 53/165
Ei = 32.1 %

That wildly contradicts the testing I did, showing stock intercooler efficiency between 60-80% in a VERY WIDE variety of conditions:

 

Randy

Thanks for helping with the response..I just landed in NY and this saves me a phone call!

Bruce

 

Andy,


What were your peak temps with the 19%? Did they even get to 195degrees? That seems high.

 

I have found the heat soaking of the water to air system to not be a problem. I have done some seriously hard driving on track and when I take a break and let the car sit I leave the pump run and the system will not heat soak, as a matter of fact it cools down with the circulation of the fluid. If you shut the system down it does heat soak in about 10 min. but I have found after sveral test sessions that it will cool back down in approx. 4 min. every time. As for sitting with the engine running waiting your turn, no problem there because system is running and staying cool. In traffic same effect. I just got the new air tube back today and will resume testing the system after 1 minor issue is resolved this week.

 

I haven't seen temps anywhere near that high on the street, strip or track. Only on the dyno have I seen intake manifold temps that get to that level.