Ya, I see that now in the picture. Couldn't a smaller replacement ait to air be put in or would the cost out weight the very slight gain this might give?

Paul

 

here is what is inside of the Laminova product. note the tubular, finned cores (2 are fitted, there is one removed to show the opening between the extrusions). the entire air path is through the 3 slots created between the extrusion elements. the water passage is entirely within the tubular elements. the one I have is 3" x 5" x 14" and weigns about 15 lbs

 

Wow Richard - no need to get touchy. I just haven't tested that type of intercooler design yet, and if you reread my post, I mention that I look forward to loooking at your data and doing my own testing. I think the gain had may be offsetted somewhat by the weight, but it is still a very interesting design. As I said, I look forward to more testing, development and research on the unit.

As far as the time invested in research and development, I believe there are many folks with that experience level. jlm comes to mind. There are many proven technologies on the MINI market - air-air being one of them. I also don't believe that something that has been around for twenty years necessarily makes it the best option - innovation is sometimes a better way to go. That doesn't mean I believe that about this product, just that I don't buy into the theory.

Again, I have always believed that working together as a MINI community we can offer better products, and from the talks I had with Anthony at the Meet, it sounded like there was going to be no problem with me doing some independent testing, and even offering the product should there be no teething problems and good numbers. I hope that philosophy is continued.


The theory of water cooling for the cylinder head is something I am very familiar with as a past air cooled Porsche racer and developing air cooled motors (I still have my GT2 motor on the engine stand). The stability of the water mass makes it much easier to control head temps, even if the average temp is higher. You have a much higher heat transferrence as well, and you don't need to cool the mass to anywhere near ambient. Whereas with the intercooler, you want to get it as close to ambient, or even less than ambient with evaporative cooling, as possible. I hope that makes sense - if not let me know and I will clarify.

Randy
:smile:

 

Randy, your intercooler or should I say the south african company Dastek's intercooler. Is way too big. You are going to see huge pressure drops from that unit. You have no idea what it is going to do because you have yet to test it.

 

Just to get this straight....Richard is "mars31971", and Christian is "clevy". Right????
Is Anthony on this board?

All of this talking in the third person gets confusing! He, Them, Us, etc....

 

clevy, obviously you have tested it. Please give us your evaluation of the Dastek intercooler. You seem to know more about the system than Randy...fill us in.


If it's just bickering and poking you insist on continuing...take it elswhere!
Be constructive, or be gone.

Now, let's carry on.

 

Actually, we have had it on the car and done preliminary testing. What I said earlier was that I want to do more testing on the production units. I know both what the pressure drop and density increase are under certain conditions, but it is not enough to give a good average. The initial testing was good enough to continue development suffice it to say.


Dastek of South Africa is the manufacturer, and I have been directly involved with the development of the product. I am also working with them on several other products for the MINI. Unless I want to start up my own carbon fiber production facility ($), I will continue to use other manufacturers to develop design ideas.

Hope that helps!

Randy :smile:

 

Given the heat soak characteristics of AW vs AA, it seems an AW would be of more benefit in street application vs. an AA, as generally you would have less time on boost, thus time to cool the water down, and more mass to transfer the 'peaky' IC heat. In a track situation, an AA seems to make more sense, due to extended periods of high boost - thus not giving an AW sufficient time to cool the water mass (given a 20-30 minute session.)

Does that logic seem right?

 

The stock intercooler is longer than the air tube and would also add more pressure drop for loss of boost pressure.

 

I was not getting touchy, I just don't like it when people don't know enough or nothing at all about a product they start putting it down until they have the facts. I am not an engineer as I am sure most people are not but am getting info for everyone as quickly as I can. I appreciate jlm helping out as I have been told he has engineering back ground or at least enough knowlage about this product. Air to air is proven on the mini, it doesn't work very well.

 

You are correct and Anthony is not on the board.

 

For those who have not seen the Dastek intercooler here is a link.

http://www.dastekpower.com/photopage...rphotopage.htm

Even though I own the Alta intercooler I think it's great that other companies are coming out with competitive products.

I am eager to see what Randy's numbers on both products will be.

 

It's been several months, but I once spent some time researching the best air-to-air and the best water-to-air ICs for a few different cars, just to see what choices they have...

What I came away with was that there was no one single hands-down winner. The best of each type maybe only differed by a couple or so hp, and that was dependent on the application (how used, track or street namely)...

Being water cooled is really a misnomer. It is the air that is cooling things down, for both IC types. Since the ambient air is the source, or chilling agent, water and it's added weight, along with all of the connections and related hardware is there to deliver what the air gave it. That is why there is typically not much difference between the two, and when one does see a difference, it is only in certain situations. The dyno will also not account for the added weight of the water-based unit. For our MINI's, a 30 pound addition is tantamount to nearly a 2hp loss...

The ambient air cools the hot compressed SC air. Give me a light, well-designed a-to-a unit, with no middle man involved (water), and that will be as good as one can can get, at least in some situations .

 

I agree with TonyB, it is the air that is ultimately doing the work. The water is just a middleman. I also agree that one or the other is going to only show a marginal increase over the other depending on the situation it is used in. I think the dyno will not really show accurate results. We need some real world tests to show the actual figures from these two types of intercoolers. I would really like to see someone like Randy to do some good side by side tests. Showing price, weight, 0-60mph, 0-1320t, time around a track, and temperature readings. I think all of these factors would play a serious role in the decision making of these units. The main ones out there appear to be GSR, Alta, Dastek, FMD. It would be interesting to see also the results of the GSR and Alta diverters. Add in the water sprayer and the Cyro sprayer, and we would have one serious set of numbers. We really needs this. Someone help.

 

If we talk about the introduction of a chilling agent other than air, then we are talking a new ball game, and I open to it, so long as I don't have to replenish anything (I'm just not keen on that). Until we have such innovation, that's the beauty of air - there is a constant source of "cool" ambient air on tap . Beautiful in its simplicity!

 

the most elegant way to use the laminova would be to bolt it directly on to the blower, air path going straight up, and build a new intake plenum/manifold right on top, directing the flow into the ports. You would lose the hideously shaped snoots and the entire stock intercooler. A really ambitious project would be to mount a Whipple screw blower in place of the Eaton.


Sound familiar, M7?

 

Unless you are going to pit for a refill of co2 every lap, the cryo system is out of the question. You could not possibly drag around the track with you enough co2 to run a race. It is a short term increase in power, similar to using nitrous (though nitrous will give you a MUCH larger kick!).

 

Given the small size of the Laminova unit why not leave the stock unit in place and add a smaller (and cheaper) helper unit. That might give you the advantages of air AND water cooling. Given the reported pressure drop of the stock unit (very low) the total drop should not be significantly worse.

Let's see, screw blower...30% better efficiency....estimate 50hp peak parasitic...that's 15 hp plus cooler charge, that might be good for 10hp, SC + water pump + brackets + intake piping, its got to cost more than most would be willing to pay for 25hp. Oooops, better include Quaife if you don't have one already. Will it put me out of Street Mod?

 

what's up guys, I've been on the sidelines checking this one out.

Tonyb, thanks man. I forgot the fact that in the end, all is cooled by air. I got lost after trippin off the design of this piece here.

I do have a good question though and the question is.........with the air (intake) blowing around those tiny fins......how long before you have to clean the oil residue off of them, I know how it builds up in the stock intercooler, but in this? I could easily see this thing getting soaked with oil. Anyone?

 

I'll get ripped for this one. Disconnect the return line from the intake and put a filter/catch can on it. Taadaah. No oil in the intake!!!

 

Gotcha, but......I have a catch can and still get some oil in the intake path. I just would not want to have to take that off, let alone taking it apart to clean it. I clean the stock one every 4000 miles or so when I do my oil change. take care guys!

 

No, no. What I mean is, don't reconnect it. Terminate the vent hose with a catch can with a filter. Do not reconnect it to the intake. This is a definate "no-no" in the big book of pollution control, but...

 

ahhhhhh.....thanks Bisch.

 

A friend of mine told me that if you increase the amount of water in the system that it will allow more cooling. The water has time to cool off in the radiator(s) while the other half is cooling off the air in the intake manifold. He has been making autorotor kits for VW's. One of his customers is running a lamanova setup and he is going to advise him to increase is water reservoir. Just a thought.

 

That certainly makes sense, but that additional benefit does come at the cost of added water, and a larger capacity system (still more weight). I have nothing against this new IC at all... just the concept of water/air being superior to a pure air unit...