The tech-thread has not come to agreement on the action of the restrictor, but it seems to be running about
75% "causes a slower valve closing and opening which will be smoother at the cost of a slight reduction in performance" and
25% "Causes the valve to close faster and open more slowly, but we can't quite explain how"

I'm in the "Why is this so hard to figure out" camp. I think I'm personally about 75% slower and 25% possibly faster camp since I don't feel that I have a complete understanding of what's going on.

Team: Rational thought. Keep changing your mind with the arrival of new data and clear explanations.

It's a great thread, and it's interesting that no one from M7 has any thoughts they are willing to share on their mod.
That's too bad for the MINI community as a whole.

_________________
Team: Rational thought

 

>>I don't see why the bypass valve can't be tied in to the throttle. Why couldn't a servo be used that would open the valve at say half throttle and greater. The servo would snap the valve open when it needed to be open and snap it shut when it needed to be shut. I don't claim to have a vast knowledge of supercharger engineering, but it seems the vacume system is not very efficient.

In a convoluted way that's what the ECU does and, as I understand it, this is why the v38 firmware from MINI could presumably work... it changes the relationship of throttle position to the action of the bypass servo. And the firmware update (for most of us, anyway) won't even cost 74 cents.

Dan

 

Over and over, I see the operation of this device explained as, "It restricts flow in the tube, which makes the valve operate more quickly".

This makes zero sense to me, and in fact flies in the face of common sense. The (bypass) valve changes its state in response to changes in the pressure "seen" at its end of the tube. Restricting the flow within this tube can only increase the amount of time it takes for pressure swings to be recognized at the valve end of the tube. This inescapably means that the valve will react slower, not faster, to changes in pressure.

This sounds like a good way to damp unwanted (short term) pressure transients which may be a factor in the dreaded "yo yo", but reducing/slowing the actuating force on a valve WILL NOT cause the valve's actuation to speed up. Period.

So, assuming that this so called device actually does anything, how does it do it? Perhaps when you get off the throttle, this restriction slows the opening of the bypass valve so much that when you get back on the throttle again, the valve is pretty much still closed and you don't have to wait for the valve to go from fully open to fully closed?

Or perhaps, even when restricted, there is sufficient positive pressure to slam the valve closed, but the meager amount of vacuum encountered "at idle" is not sufficent to quickly open the valve at that same rate?

(To this observer, it appears that somebody at M7 read Rye's observations/conclusions about this subject, misunderstood them, managed to copy some of them, spread factually incorrect FUD about Rye's original versions, refused to explain their "variation" on them, managed to turn it into a mailing list generating scheme, and then finally explained their variation. Incorrectly.

Dave

edited by d-mini-ero

 

Trippy...would you do this mod to your Cooper S...oh wait, you drive a Cooper...

I really don't care what it does....

I don't care that M7 is selling it...

I don't care what they say about it...

But why in the world do care so much about it?
edited by d-mini-ero
_________________

</DIV><td align=right><b>A
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>>But why in the world do care so much about it?

I love science. I love engines, I love Physics and I love to understand things.

And, most of all, I love having scientific discussions with interesting people.
It's a gas, It challenges both my scientific understanding as well as my ability to explain things to others.

 

That is understandable...but why don't you have an in depth conversation via phone or PM? I don't understand why you have to get everyone worked up. I am not saying you are a bad guy, but sometimes you tend to make things a little...hostile. I appreciate that some people actually care about how some of the mods work and all, and how the numbers show this...but does it really have to dragged out through these threads? I am not trying to start anything, just saying that it might be easier to get your information through other ways than leaving some text on a webpage in hopes that someone will read it...

 

The dead horse has now been beaten to death. Twice.

I can appreciate that there are some people, both on this thread and the "technical" thread who are having difficulty getting their mind around how this mod works. People "get" things at different times, and some things are more obvious to some than others. If you really want to understand how this works, you should review this thread, the companion "technical" thread, and the threads on the work Ryephile did on the bypass issues. If you read all that and still don't get it, don't worry. Sit back, think about it a little, and re-read in a few days. I guarantee that all the information is there. (One thing I wouldn't do is figure out how people are "voting" on how it works - make sure you understand it yourself. At one time, most people thought the earth was flat).

This is not to say that all questions have been answered. For example, there is no long-term testing on how the mod will affect supercharger/engine longevity. But this issue has been raised and both sides aired. Some people think the bypass valve is unnecessary, and have eliminated it entirely. Others think it is important for temperature control, and they do not want to change timing for the valve. This mod, like Ryephix #2, is a compromise between the two positions. Again, this issue is fully discussed in the threads mentioned above (I don't know how to insert hot links to threads, or I would do so).

The point is if you don't "get" how the mod works from reading this thread alone, don't worry. If you read all the background and still don't get it, just give it some time. And if you don't want to put a mod on your car unless you understand how it works - just wait and see if it comes to you, and if it doesn't, don't use the mod.

Just how much aggravation is one free mod worth? :smile:

 

My my havent we all been busy in here. I have a suggestion . Is there anyone in the Los Angeles area that the ney sayers would approve of as their representative available to meet and see reality instead of theory ? Then they can report their findings based on fact not guess work which from what I have seen is WAY off the mark.If so email or Pm me. Got to go the Lakers are on :smile:

 

SFJAMES2

I have the "device" and a boost gage, while boost builds much quiker, boost still goes down same as it did before the "device" was installed. Interestingly vacuum incrased slightly (2 lbs) when the engine running at about 3200 RPM.

Hope this helps

 

Greenphantom, welcome to NAM, we always like to see new faces around here.

 

>>No one has asked what affect this might have on the car? Since we don't know what it does or how it is made up, will it have any affects? Just because 30 people tried it out and it has worked well over the weekend and the fact that it is free doesn't necessarily make this a benign product. I am not saying it will have a negative affect, but since we don't know much about it except for pictures, does anyone with more knowledge on this (i.e maxmini, Ryephile, Andy), have any thoughts on this?
>>
>>I have always liked the products from M7 (maybe not the PB but pretty much everything else), while I wouldn't purchase all of them, I have to give him an A for different innovative products that no one else is selling. I really like my Ultimate Grill that I have. Most of the bad publicity that M7 gets is because of the information release associated with his products. Some times they are introduced on the side from members that spend time with him, or other times they are big posts with pictures, but not always much follow up with detail. Detail that this community asks for a lot. He has always been real helpful to me over the phone and seems like a great guy. I think a lot of the barrier stems around communication. It seems like his most ardent supporters are from the SoCal area, which are individuals that he spends time with on such things as the Canyon runs. I think the face-to-face contact probably goes a long way and people are able to look at his products first hand and try them out. For the 90% of the rest of the country that can't see his products on a regular basis, communication is key. Earlier posts about this product in comparison with some of the more detailed posts that members such as Ryephile or Randy provide show a difference in styles. It would be nice to see more detailed posts and more details on products from Peter and M7. This is just my observation. I hope Peter continues to provide high quality products for the Mini community, while enhancing the communication for most of us who can't hang around his products or see them in action.
>>
>>I will be looking forward to the feedback from the other customers on this product.
can this mod hurt the car in any way...how about the warrenty??

 

>>SFJAMES2

>>I have the "device" and a boost gage, while boost builds much quiker, boost still goes down same as it did before the "device" was installed. Interestingly vacuum incrased slightly (2 lbs) when the engine running at about 3200 RPM.

>>Hope this helps

Anyone care to respond to greenphantoms findings as they relate to this discussion now that we have "some" numbers???

 

As a point of info....for those interested in additional info..... please refer to the...
Supercharger Bypass Valve Theory Thread which is also listed in The Performance Mods Section.

Peace,
D

_________________
PM d-mini-ero

 

>>SFJAMES2
>>
>>I have the "device" and a boost gage, while boost builds much quiker, boost still goes down same as it did before the "device" was installed. Interestingly vacuum incrased slightly (2 lbs) when the engine running at about 3200 RPM.
>>
>>Hope this helps
>>
>>

ah, thats sounds like a good thing. WHERE IS MY LETTER?

 

I'm not a tuner or in the business...and this is the first car I've ever modded (except for stereo which doesn't count here) and I've dealt with a lot of the people that are selling products on this forum (and others) that I've come to the conclusion that it's a dirty dirty business. There are already so many people selling the same products, that the margins have become smaller, and with that comes more people and subsequently more product innovations.

I've dealt with Peter many times, and have purchased from him on 2 different occasions, and as a customer, I have nothing bad to say about him. In fact, he has been really good to me and my car...prompt in responding to inquiries, eager to discuss my issues with the car...goals and other...knowledgable about racing setups (I told him about something I had and over the phone he was able to diagnose the problem and find a solution) so for the reseller story, pm or email Andy, and for the consumer story pm or email any of the hundreds (thousands?) of satisfied customers that have dealt with him.

L

 

I'm neither a consumer nor a reseller of M7. I simply had a bad experience with Peter Horvath.

BTW, one the SASE people has offered to send his device to me for testing. I'll post results as soon as I have the device installed.

_________________


Zeigen Sie mir die Zahlen!.:.My Mods

 

Ok, I've got a NEW question about this device,
that AFAI can tell has not been asked before (in this thread):



Does the installation of this device reduce gas mileage?


Based on what I have read about the whole bypass valve operation, I would guess (and that's all it is, a guess), that if the device improves throttle response, then it will reduce gas mileage. What I would like to see by some of those who have installed this device, is a comparison of mileage before vs after, in addition to comments on throttle respones.

Now, another even more outlandish question based on my very limited understanding of such automotive matters: it woul dbe interesting to see before/after dyno run plots of the air-fuel mixture, is it possible that these might be affected?

TIA!
M.

 

Just a little update on the " device" . The fourth group of devices were sent out today and we are completely caught up on the letters at last. Thank you all for the letters of support and encouragement for this and many of our other products. I hope you all have as good a result as many so far and feel free to test and post accordingly. As for that mileage question I have had the " device " installed for about 2800 miles now honest I am always trying different things that affect mileage in so many ways that i never bother to keep track. I am sure that some members will be checking on that immediately so your question should be answered shortly. Again your results may vary :smile:

Randy
Team M7

 

first of all thanks to team M7 for the device.
for instalation do you realy need to remove the inter cooler.
is there any other way to do the instal.
thank you how about removing the coild air intake.

 

>>Ok, I've got a NEW question about this device,
>>that AFAI can tell has not been asked before (in this thread):
>>
>>

 

>>first of all thanks to team M7 for the device.
>>for instalation do you realy need to remove the inter cooler.
>>is there any other way to do the instal.
>>thank you how about removing the coild air intake.

Hi there....

It is not necessary to remove the intercooler....but it makes it easier as the space where the valve is located
is rather tight. If you remove the intercooler, wash it out with aceton or brake cleaner as there's a lot of
oil build up in the IC.

peter
Team M7
562-712-3270
:smile:

 

Peter:
I received the M7 device a few days ago, thank you very much! I removed the intercooler which was a breeze to do but I noticed mine was very, very clean, no oil residue anywhere except for a bit inside the rubber boots.
I have one question, do you remove the existing hose by just pulling it off with a good yank? And once the old hose is removed does the M7 Device just slip on in its place? Its rather difficult to get to the hidden end of the hose on (the one without the white dot) so placing the new one on would have to be done blindly, by feel, yes?
Thanks,
MGEAR

 

>>Peter:
>>I received the M7 device a few days ago, thank you very much! I removed the intercooler which was a breeze to do but I noticed mine was very, very clean, no oil residue anywhere except for a bit inside the rubber boots.
>>I have one question, do you remove the existing hose by just pulling it off with a good yank? And once the old hose is removed does the M7 Device just slip on in its place? Its rather difficult to get to the hidden end of the hose on (the one without the white dot) so placing the new one on would have to be done blindly, by feel, yes?
>>Thanks,
>>MGEAR


A good yank should be all that is needed to get the old one off and yes the M7 replacement hose slips on in its place. The " blind " end is the tough part but you can reach underneath the air inlet and thru from the front and find it with your finger tips. Steve has it down to where he can do it without removing anything at all but like most things it is easier after you have done it a few times. As for not much oil in the intercooler itself we find that with most cars with over 10 k miles that are driven hard with a lot of downshifting there is a good amount of oil build up. Again all Mini's are not created equal and it sounds like yours is not as susceptible to that situation as are most. Good on you ! Enjoy

Randy
Team M7

 

>> A good yank should be all that is needed to get the old one off and yes the M7 replacement hose slips on in its place. The " blind " end is the tough part but you can reach underneath the air inlet and thru from the front and find it with your finger tips. Steve has it down to where he can do it without removing anything at all but like most things it is easier after you have done it a few times. As for not much oil in the intercooler itself we find that with most cars with over 10 k miles that are driven hard with a lot of downshifting there is a good amount of oil build up. Again all Mini's are not created equal and it sounds like yours is not as susceptible to that situation as are most. Good on you ! Enjoy
>>
>>Randy
>>Team M7

well I got my device the other day and am even now trying to install it but frankly there is just no way. my hands (paws really) are just waaay too big. I think I'm going to have to take the whole front end off.

anyone out there actually been able to do it?

EDIT: ok I got it. sheesh that was a pain but it can be done!
ReEDIT: After having driven with the device for a day I can certinaly say that boost builds very quickly. Just push your foot to the floor and you immediately have 7-9 lbs (I have stock pully). Keep it there and it builds to 10. I have yet to reach my max of 11.5 with the device. Also, if I were to give an impression, it seems a little skittish. What I mean is that boost fades as quickly as it rises. I dont recall if it was always like that though.

any other impressions out there?

_________________
Motorin' ... right now!

 

It would be nice to know if the boost really comes on faster than the old hose.

That is the thing that we "theory" guys can't quite figure out yet.

It's good to see you measuring things. Thanks for the post.

And if you could post the inner-diameter of the restriction, it would help out other experimenters.