Just a bit of a recap......
-(2) threads ..1 locked ...1 continues
-approx 250 posts and approx 7600 views.

We now... seem.... to know what the "device" is and what it's purpose is.
Simply stated.....
It's a restrictive hose that reduces the vacuum... causing the value to work earlier.... causing the supercharger to creat boost earlier.... theorectically causing increase throttle response.
Still no definitive facts on hose size, diamater, valve spec's,etc ....on this "device"

Here's a question that has been posted many times now and we are still awaiting an answer...
I'll paraphrase....

What short/long term effects will this reduced vacuum have on these cars????

For some here on NAM these cars are a substancial investment of time and money. Is there the possibility that this "device' will be responsibile for a warantee denial claim down the road???? I haven't heard any info to support or deny this possibility.


I'm listening :smile:

Peace,
D

 

This is sorta like a car wreck... gruesome, but I just can't look away...

 

What is M7's privacy policy?

 

I can understand that it slows the response time of the valve opening, but wont it also slow the response of the valve closing? You want the valve closed to prevent the intake air from being recirculated, but eventually you take your foot off the throtle and generate vacuum which starts the valve opening. Once the valve is fully open, you floor it again, but this time the valve closes more slowly because the vacuum still is present at the valve diaphram.
There is a fundamental difference between the two methods of modification, restriction and spring. The restriction method, it seems , would modify the response time of the valve but keep its operation parameters the same.More restriction, the longer it takes to operate the valve, less restriction, the quicker it operates.
The spring method appears to alter the vacuum threshold at which the valve will operate. Stronger spring, more vacuum required to operate the bypass, weaker spring, less vacuum required to operate the bypass.
Which is better?Why do we need a bypass valve at all?

 

>>Hello GS thanks for the post. To be honest I thought we covered some of these questions but It may have been in the first thread which has been locked.Im not an engineer so I can not offer numbers , charts and graphs but i can tell you what it does not what the theory is.Have you driven a theory lately ? To put it as simple as I can the " device " is a reduction tube which is inserted in the rubber vacuum line connected to the by pass valve for the super charger. The " device " causes the valve to work earlier which in turn allows the super charger to begin to work sooner which usually caused the driver to smile broadly :smile: . End of story. You can have two cars side by side one with the " device " and one without and you can actually SEE the valve work more rapidly at a much lower RPM. On my car I have the BMP boost gage and the needle actually snaps to full boost where it used to climb more slowly. Some people have felt a very noticeable difference and some have not felt it quite as much but we feel that has a lot to do with the difference between various Mini's . Does it add more HP we doubt it. Does it cure the yo yo problem we don't think do but that is only based on testing on one car with severe yo yo problems. We had HOPED it might help but with just that one test we aren't seeing any relief there.Will it cause you to think you have reduced your pulley size another 10%? Of course not.We believe and so far have not been disappointed that you will feel some sort of positive change in your throttle response. Nothing more and nothing less. I don't know what else I can say at this point other than it will only cost you two stamps to find out how it will work on your personal car. We are giving this away as the cost of the " device " itself is so small that I would feel guilty charging for it. In return we are trying to build a mailing list for our own purpose of being able to send mailings of new product releases and sale coupons at some point in the future. Trust me there will never be a lot, those mailings cost a ton and we would rather spend it on development. I hope I have answered your questions regarding the effect and the improvements offered by the " device " :smile:
>>
>>Randy
>>Team M7

Very clear and concise. THIS is the kind of info. I like from the vendors. Thanks, Randy!

Doug

 

>>>>>>I understand. Thanks for your consideration anyway.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Andy, haven't you ordered plenty of stuff through the mail already? I'm sure your address is already on lots of mailing list. What's M7 gonna do with yours? Take a chance
>>
>>
>>I was hoping M7 would just send it to him to eliminate about 50% or more of the skeptics. It would seem to me the $0.35 from M7 would clean up the air a lot.

Edit: Mark Ferguson has asked me to edit or remove this post and since it is his site, I will comply.

_________________

Zeigen Sie mir die Zahlen!.:.My Mods

 

>>Which is better?Why do we need a bypass valve at all?

I'm understanding better now - the restrictor just acts like a stronger spring. Because the bypass valve needs constant vacuum to pull against the spring, when that source of vacuum is reduced (by the restrictor), the spring closes the valve more quickly.

Not sure which is better, though the restrictor seems simpler.

The bypass valve isn't 'needed' but it's helpful in reducing low throttle loads on the engine, and increasing gas mileage due to those decreased loads. I'm surprise how little I am in boost vs. vacuum. The goal of the bypass is to give the best of both worlds - 'instant' boost with better economy.

 

I started reading this thread yesterday, got busy, and when I come back it's gone mad. I can't believe the venom in some of these posts. It's only the cost of a couple of stamps ffs.

Having said that...I just looked up M7's address and find that I drive within about 400 yards at least twice a day, 5 days a week!

So...one way of saving yourself 74 cents and not getting on a mailing list...move to the Lakewood area.

Any chance you guys could stick on of those things on your front porch and I'll swing by at around noon today and pick mine up?



Ken

 

>>Just a bit of a recap......
>>-(2) threads ..1 locked ...1 continues
>>-approx 250 posts and approx 7600 views.
>>
>>We now... seem.... to know what the "device" is and what it's purpose is.
>>Simply stated.....
>>It's a restrictive hose that reduces the vacuum... causing the value to work earlier.... causing the supercharger to creat boost earlier.... theorectically causing increase throttle response.
>>Still no definitive facts on hose size, diamater, valve spec's,etc ....on this "device"
>>
>>Here's a question that has been posted many times now and we are still awaiting an answer...
>>I'll paraphrase....
>>
>>What short/long term effects will this reduced vacuum have on these cars????
>>
>>For some here on NAM these cars are a substancial investment of time and money. Is there the possibility that this "device' will be responsibile for a warantee denial claim down the road???? I haven't heard any info to support or deny this possibility.
>>
>>
>>I'm listening :smile:
>>
>>Peace,
>>D :smile: With this in mind we feel that the warranties are safe but as with any mod you are taking a risk. If mini people weren't risk takers to some degree we would all be driving JCW cars and what fun would that be?

Randy
team M7

 

FWIW I visited Peter (M7) a couple of weeks ago. He has a supertrapp on his car and I wanted to hear what it was like. Peter invited me over to his house. He took time out of his busy day preparing for weekend races and took me out for a drive in the car. No cost, No obligation, No sales pitch. Just talking minis. He showed me some things in development. He was very open, helpful and generous with his time.

His car was quick, but I was very impressed with the throttle response of his car. What most impressed me was how quickly and smoothly he could upshift. My 2003 MCS has the 15% and Alta Intake. When I get off throttle, it takes a while to "spool down". This makes quick shifts and rev matching pretty difficult. I have to consciously take my foot of the gas a little before putting in the clutch on my upshift to second. I find this to be the most irritating thing about the MCS. I don't care if there is quicker spool-up but am eager to find out whether the "device" will provide quicker spool-down. If it does that would vastly increase my pleasure in driving the car.

I can appreciate Andy's insistence that promoters of a mod or product provide data to back up the claim. I can appreciate vendors casting their products in a favorable light. I can enjoy Trippy's secret electrical mod, which obviously is a play on M7's "device" giveaway.

It is for each of us to use critical thinking to get behind the words used. It just saddens me when vindictive and insults are thrown around. We risk losing positive contributions from participants.

Just my 2 cents
Steve Swytak

 

Randy,

You keep skirting around the question. Yes we know it is free, and that you won't be able to tell the difference with the stock part. That is not the question. The question is what negative impacts may this have on the operation of the car. Like someone said it will close quicker, but will it open slower? And yes we have asked these types of questions on every product out there. Do a search and you will find an exhaustive collection of threads asking questions about items such as pulleys, throttle bodies, flywheels. And even sometimes products have been found to be faulty, even though the manufacturer claims they are great with no recorded problems. Other times the manufacturers go into good explanations on the products and some of there testing that they have done. I would rather not hear a response "Well it is free, if you don't want it don't get it", since that skirts the question as well. I think it is a legitiment question. I think a lot of people here just jumped on the bandwagon because a vendor is giving something away free, which is great we appreciate vendors giving things away for free, but no one is really asking what are the consequences of installing the product.

Everyone keeps slamming legitimate posts with some legitimate questions saying that it is the cost of a stamp and to stop asking questions. That is not the point. Heck I can find people who have great fuel additives to through into your gas tank and they will give them to you for free as well. Doesn't mean I am going to run out and throw it into my tank, just because they are nice enough to give it to me free. I am not saying that M7 does this, but I would like some more information on a product before I install it on my car, especially since I paid good money for the car and it is my daily driver. Some pictures, a brief high level description of a hose and the fact that 30 people have had it on the car since last weekend, doesn't necessarily answer any of this. I agree that hounding a vendor is uncalled for at some point. But I think asking how the device works, it's benefits, and what affect it may have on the car, is not such a set of radical questions. I would hope all of you ask the same questions when you purchase other items for your car, or house. I would still (as well as others) like to know from a technical aspect why it will not affect the reliability of the car (I know you can't predict the future), just a technical explanation of why you don't feel this design and it's function will not affect the functionality of the car.

Thanks in advance for responding.

 

>>Great question and my question to you is why haven't you asked that about , reduced pulley's, tuned headers, throttle bodies,lightened flywheels, or any of the other products that have been introduced for our cars? There is always a risk involved with new developments and no one is a fortune teller and can read the future. In this case we feel we are a lot better off that some of the proposed solutions say a tie wrap for example. The " Device " works in such a fashion that a non owner of the car getting in would never think something had been changed to the level of a 15 % pulley for example. The " device " is pretty well buried under the intercooler intake and is inserted within the stock rubber hose so from the outside even if they held it in their hand it would be hard to discern. To take it one step further we gave our newest member of the M7 family 2 hrs to find it and he never came close. This gentleman happens to be the local Mini dealerships number one mini mechanic and is now moonlighting with us. $ 500 labor charge on flywheel and clutch installs anyone :smile: With this in mind we feel that the warranties are safe but as with any mod you are taking a risk. If mini people weren't risk takers to some degree we would all be driving JCW cars and what fun would that be?
>>
>>Randy
>>team M7

Thanks for the response.
I appreciate your reply.
You unfortunately still....did not answer my question :smile:

As an example to address your statement above lets discuss the aforementioned "pulley". I... DID... ask about the "pulley" before installing it. I spoke to Randy Webb & Eric Savage at great lengths on the phone and read volumes & volumes of technical information that they both posted here on NAM regarding.... install instructions, manufacturing specs. HP gains, warantee concerns.... etc...etc. They both were open, informative and forthcomming with all/any details requested from the many questions posed by our NAM members. I read about the pulley for almost 6 months before acting on this mod and did not put one on my car...tilll the 1st pullied car had close to 10K on it. They both did their own R&D... It seems you are usuing this NAM community to do your R&D.

Are we developers or are YOU the developers???? It seems obvious that you are "testing" and "developing" this device on OUR CARS!!!!!
I agree that no one is a fortune teller and no one can read the future.
So Ican only infer from that statement that you have no idea as to what this "device" will do to our cars in the long/short term.... So installing this is a leap of faith on our part to become part of your unpaid R & D team. Additionally we will be personally responsible for anything that happens to OUR CARS.... from installing this "device".
That's not free to me :smile:

So.... as long as no one finds it.... we're safe?
That's not exactly reassuring to me.


I ask the same question I posed before...in a very straight forward way :smile:
It requires a simple yes or no answer .

Does M7 currently know the short/long term ramifications of installing this "device" on our cars??????


Peace,
D

 

Good post, great questions wish i had the answers you are looking for. This is a new mod, i have had it on my car for about 2500 miles. Car went in for 30 k service and the warranty police didn't lock me up. The " device " makes a stock component , the vacuum by pass valve work a bit faster making the super charger respond a bit better.That's it from what i can tell. The " device " modifies the car in such a small way in comparison to the well accepted pulley reduction mod for example. There are no superchargers spinning faster than designed , no water pumps cavitating , no parts heating up ,yet that mod has been accepted whole heartedly. The questions about the device are more than fair and if anyone is worried about it then of course don't try it.

On a side note anyone wondering what your names will be used for it is for our mailings only if and when they occur. I hate junk mail as much as you do. I'm off to the shop to make " devices " I'll check back later and offer any updates if i can.

Randy
Team M7

 

Once again if you dont want to try it please don't waste the stamps. We are not developing a product here , it is something we found that works and we are giving it away. We are not doing R&D on your cars as that would emply we are developing a product. There is NO product . I will make you a promise D-Mini that when i get 10,000 miles on the " device " I will PM you personally and tell you it is ok, Deal ?

Randy

Mgr. Gift Dept
Team M7

 

One last thing D-Mini I really like your format for seperating the quotes in your reply posts. Very clear and easy to follow. I wish everyone , including me knew how to do that.

Randy
Team M7

 

There is a fair concern by the readership that the facts be supplied and openly discussed, at risk of having thin skin abraded. I usually appreciate Andy's comments and always his technical information and graphs. Having said that, some might believe that even he is not without his faults.

In particular, every time I read one of Andy's posts, I find it troubling that Andy openly advertises his MINI as having, and I quote, "The Dog's Bullocks". Just look at his posts. It's right there. BUT, go to his mods and he openly discloses that he uses the "one-ball" cat-back exhaust. If indeed his MINI lacks its full compliment of two bollocks, he should not portray his MINI in a more favorable light.

Andy, one bollock or two bollockS. Inquiring minds want to ... oh, nevermind!

 

If your scared, go to CHURCH!

 

If he responds with pictures or graphs about dog testies... you brought it on yourself!

 

One of the bollocks is the muffler, one is the Whalen ****. It is normal for them to be different sizes.

 

Randy,

Thanks for your response. The size and apparent external impact of the modification does not necessarily make it safer. Just because the product is small and looks just like the stock unit, doesn't make it benign. A small piece of sand can wreck a lot of havoc if placed in the right location. With that said, I would have liked to see M7 do some testing on the product as well as discuss this with Eaton, since they did have technical reasons why they built it that way. And, yes, I know that sometimes they are compromises, but sometimes there are also reasons for why something is built a certain way. I know you are not charging anyone out there for this product, and that is it's big benefit. I would just seriously caution all those who are jumping at the bit to get this prodcut. No product testing, no real understanding on the impacts of this product, and no technical discussions with the manufacturer of the component, should make anyone weary.

I for one will be holding off. My main concern revolves around the fact that while it closes faster because of the fact that the restriction reduces the affect of the vacuum. The restriction will benefit acceleration which everyone is indicating because the bypass valve is closed quicker under boost. During decceleration or idle, the bypass valve will open, but with the tighter restriction the vacuum will not be able to open it as quickly. This will most definitely affect gas mileage as well as to prolong the amount of hot air entering the cylinders under deceleration. Both of these are actions you would want not to increase. The increased heat will wear on the car's engine. Since no one has done any testing the question becomes how much gas mileage is affected and what impact does the heat have. May not be a whole lot. But as a side note it is often not wise to play with the bypass valve of supercharger. Both Eaton as well as Magnuson recommend against playing with the attributes of this valve. An improperly working bypass valve can cause damage to a vehicle by maintaining boost and hot air for too long into the engine.

 

Can't we keep tabs on intake air temps. with a guage? I did the same bit Andy did ,but put the probe AFTER the intercooler instead of both.

 

You say you found "something", not nothing. And why would you call nothing a "device"? Unless you're returning an empty envelope, it IS a product.

BTW, to get the quote format, use the "quote" and "/quote" tags enclosed in brackets. You can verify this by replying with quote any message with that format.

_________________


paul@scmm.org

 

>>Can't we keep tabs on intake air temps. with a guage? I did the same bit Andy did ,but put the probe AFTER the intercooler instead of both.


I agree. That is why I think they should have just given it to Andy without the mailing list issue. With Andy's setup of pressure sensor and temp sensors. He could get an excellent graph on what is occuring before the device is installed and after. I am going to make a prediction that he will see the boost last longer on deceleration and temps will be higher.

 

>I am going to make a prediction that he will see the boost last longer on deceleration and temps will be higher.

But, just to be a pain, how in the heck will that affect M7s mailing list which this mod is all about?

 

>>Once again if you dont want to try it please don't waste the stamps. We are not developing a product here , it is something we found that works and we are giving it away. We are not doing R&D on your cars as that would emply we are developing a product. There is NO product . I will make you a promise D-Mini that when i get 10,000 miles on the " device " I will PM you personally and tell you it is ok, Deal ?
>>
>>Randy
>>
>>Mgr. Gift Dept
>>Team M7

A group of people associated with M7 determine there is a need to fix a problem with the lag in boost buildup. They develop a device that corrects this issue. This device is a physical device that has physical characteristics. M7 develops a product strategy (i.e. give the device away for free to build up good will and spread your name among the Mini community, while at the same time building a mailing list for potential first clients). You begin a communication campaign for the product which involves giving them away at a hosted pulley party to interested third parties, as well as posting information about the device on bulletin boards. This is supplemented by testimonials from people who have used the product and like it's affects on their car. You develop a financial strategy for this device, in the fact that with the interest in M7, the sucess of this give away and the mailing list you can sell and market more items and ultimately increase sales.

As far as I can tell it seems like a product to me. I don't think there is anything wrong with this being a product. Just don't tell us it isn't or that because you didn't do R&D it isn't a product.