Drivetrain Clarification on the MaxVelocity MCS intake
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3rd Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Palatine, Illinois
just saw the vendor posting on this. If someone could clarify 2 points for me please
1) If the top of the heat shield is both curved and covered with a rubber liner to better seal it from the engine area, where is it getting the air from?
2) Am I reading this correctly? $179 gets me an extra 12 horsepower at the fly wheel? Is that what it's saying? I'm not disputing this, I'm just wanting to make sure I'm reading that correctly.
Okay, I have 3 questions. As I am not yet an owner :???: I don't have a manual to look through. Does this void the warranty?
1) If the top of the heat shield is both curved and covered with a rubber liner to better seal it from the engine area, where is it getting the air from?
2) Am I reading this correctly? $179 gets me an extra 12 horsepower at the fly wheel? Is that what it's saying?
I'm not disputing this, I'm just wanting to make sure I'm reading that correctly.Okay, I have 3 questions. As I am not yet an owner :???: I don't have a manual to look through. Does this void the warranty?
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 292
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From: Lexington, NC
>>just saw the vendor posting on this. If someone could clarify 2 points for me please
>>
>>1) If the top of the heat shield is both curved and covered with a rubber liner to better seal it from the engine area, where is it getting the air from?
>>
It is getting air from the inlet pipe.
>>2) Am I reading this correctly? $179 gets me an extra 12 horsepower at the fly wheel? Is that what it's saying? I'm not disputing this, I'm just wanting to make sure I'm reading that correctly.
>>
You read correctly, that is their claim. I will dispute the results until a neutral person dynos the unit and confirms the results.
>>Okay, I have 3 questions. As I am not yet an owner :???: I don't have a manual to look through. Does this void the warranty?
>>
Typically no, I have never heard of any dealer blaming an intake for any problem.
>>
>>1) If the top of the heat shield is both curved and covered with a rubber liner to better seal it from the engine area, where is it getting the air from?
>>
It is getting air from the inlet pipe.
>>2) Am I reading this correctly? $179 gets me an extra 12 horsepower at the fly wheel? Is that what it's saying?
I'm not disputing this, I'm just wanting to make sure I'm reading that correctly.>>
You read correctly, that is their claim. I will dispute the results until a neutral person dynos the unit and confirms the results.
>>Okay, I have 3 questions. As I am not yet an owner :???: I don't have a manual to look through. Does this void the warranty?
>>
Typically no, I have never heard of any dealer blaming an intake for any problem.
1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
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From: SF Bay Area
Hi Guys,
The results were obtained on a DynoJet chassis. There were no tricks done to get the results. We were originally looking for 5-8fwhp and a few pounds of torque. As you saw the results were much greater.
I am sending a kit to a neutral party on Monday for their feedback.
Cheers,
Roman
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Roman S.
MaxVelocity.net
The results were obtained on a DynoJet chassis. There were no tricks done to get the results. We were originally looking for 5-8fwhp and a few pounds of torque. As you saw the results were much greater.
I am sending a kit to a neutral party on Monday for their feedback.
Cheers,
Roman
_________________
Roman S.
MaxVelocity.net
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New Jersey
Why is it that different vendors claim "an extra x HP at" various spots? Flywheel, at the actual wheel, at such and such....
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Calabasas, Los Angeles
Well it's funky how you ran the dyno test with the new intake first when the engine was cool, then just 10 minutes later ran it with the stock intake. Or is that the normal thing to do? When I think 10 minutes I still imagine my engine being really, really hot, and so I would think of course the stock intake will get terrible numbers, that's all. Impressive numbers nevertheless, hehe.
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: NC, USA
No offense intended to MaxVelocity (just using this one as an example), but it seems that using such obscure (at least to me) locations such as the flywheel seems a bit seedy. Wouldn't measuring HP be more "accurate" and "representative" if measured at the wheel in every instance?
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1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: SF Bay Area
>>Why is it that different vendors claim "an extra x HP at" various spots? Flywheel, at the actual wheel, at such and such....
I'm quoting the dyno results :smile: Crank HP sounds nice but WHP is what counts. I think it is more of marketing thing to quote 'crank/flywheel' hp because it is usually 15-20%(depending on the car) greater than what actually makes it to the ground.
I always tell my non-BMW/car fanatic friends 'I make about 274hp' but my fellow enthusiasts almost immediately translate that to 234rwhp (17% loss on E36 M3)
LOL
I'm quoting the dyno results :smile: Crank HP sounds nice but WHP is what counts. I think it is more of marketing thing to quote 'crank/flywheel' hp because it is usually 15-20%(depending on the car) greater than what actually makes it to the ground.
I always tell my non-BMW/car fanatic friends 'I make about 274hp' but my fellow enthusiasts almost immediately translate that to 234rwhp (17% loss on E36 M3)
LOL
1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
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From: SF Bay Area
>>No offense intended to MaxVelocity (just using this one as an example), but it seems that using such obscure (at least to me) locations such as the flywheel seems a bit seedy. Wouldn't measuring HP be more "accurate" and "representative" if measured at the wheel in every instance?
No offense taken :smile: we are about getting legit, realistic, usable results :smile:
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Roman S.
MaxVelocity.net
No offense taken :smile: we are about getting legit, realistic, usable results :smile:
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Roman S.
MaxVelocity.net
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 292
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From: Lexington, NC
>>No offense intended to MaxVelocity (just using this one as an example), but it seems that using such obscure (at least to me) locations such as the flywheel seems a bit seedy. Wouldn't measuring HP be more "accurate" and "representative" if measured at the wheel in every instance?
Yes it would but early in the auto industry I have been told the only dynos they had were ones where you took the engine and bolted it to a machine. They didn't have a chasis dyno at the time, thus, we get manufacturers numbers at the crank.
Yes it would but early in the auto industry I have been told the only dynos they had were ones where you took the engine and bolted it to a machine. They didn't have a chasis dyno at the time, thus, we get manufacturers numbers at the crank.
1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
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From: SF Bay Area
>>>>No offense intended to MaxVelocity (just using this one as an example), but it seems that using such obscure (at least to me) locations such as the flywheel seems a bit seedy. Wouldn't measuring HP be more "accurate" and "representative" if measured at the wheel in every instance?
>>
>>Yes it would but early in the auto industry I have been told the only dynos they had were ones where you took the engine and bolted it to a machine. They didn't have a chasis dyno at the time, thus, we get manufacturers numbers at the crank.
rafthos - Yes, I understand. My whole thing about crank numbers is that it does not take into account the array of gears that have to be turned before eventually the power makes it to the ground. I really wish I didn't have a 17% tranny loss on my M3. Then I could have 274rwhp but I don't think I could drive around with my engine turning a couple of gears that are connected to my rear wheels (like those go-carts).
>>
>>Yes it would but early in the auto industry I have been told the only dynos they had were ones where you took the engine and bolted it to a machine. They didn't have a chasis dyno at the time, thus, we get manufacturers numbers at the crank.
rafthos - Yes, I understand. My whole thing about crank numbers is that it does not take into account the array of gears that have to be turned before eventually the power makes it to the ground. I really wish I didn't have a 17% tranny loss on my M3. Then I could have 274rwhp but I don't think I could drive around with my engine turning a couple of gears that are connected to my rear wheels (like those go-carts).
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3rd Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Palatine, Illinois
But, if he's talking about a 12 bhp increase at the fly wheel, aren't you going to get almost that much more at the wheel?
I thought the drive train "used up" a flat amount of horsepower, not a percentage. No?
If you're measuring both the before and the after at the same point, isn't that what counts?
Measuring the stock set up at the wheels and the modification at the flywheel would be deceptive, but that's not what's been done here.
I thought the drive train "used up" a flat amount of horsepower, not a percentage. No?
If you're measuring both the before and the after at the same point, isn't that what counts?
Measuring the stock set up at the wheels and the modification at the flywheel would be deceptive, but that's not what's been done here.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,193
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From: CT, Litchfield County
I have a question about the heat shield. How exactly does a heat shield that is "thermoformed" differ from say a CNC bent one? Is it a sheet metal heat shiled bent a different way? Can you explain on how this reduces heat transfer through the heat shield itself. Also, do you have any numbers to show that this intake reduce thermal temps better than other aftermarket intakes? Thanks.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New Jersey
I thought the drive train "used up" a flat amount of horsepower, not a percentage. No?
Well it's funky how you ran the dyno test with the new intake first when the engine was cool, then just 10 minutes later ran it with the stock intake. Or is that the normal thing to do?
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Tsunami Zone
Same design as Madness/Rogue, Mania, Pilo and Pipercross air intake, all of which have been tested at 6-7 hp. Why does this one make more?
"Unlike other heat shields made from sheet metal, the MaxVelocity heat shield has been thermoformed". What does this mean?
1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: SF Bay Area
>>I have a question about the heat shield. How exactly does a heat shield that is "thermoformed" differ from say a CNC bent one? Is it a sheet metal heat shiled bent a different way? Can you explain on how this reduces heat transfer through the heat shield itself. Also, do you have any numbers to show that this intake reduce thermal temps better than other aftermarket intakes? Thanks.
Ace - The heat shield is not metal at all but instead, plastic. Plastic dissapates heat a lot better and does not radiate heat like common metals. If you took aluminum or steel it would have to be of a greater thickness then the plastic in order to not get as saturated with heat and it would also take longer to cool down. With the thickness of metal that would be required it would be very heavy and difficult to work with.
For example, many new cars come with plastic intake manifolds. Why is that? Well, a plastic manifold IS lighter than say aluminum but that is not the real reason for it. On my M3 I have a plastic intake manifold (that's how it comes stock). I can do a full track session, open the hood and can still put my hand on the intake manifold without burning myself. If I tried the same thing with an aluminum manifold, I would probaby be putting burn cream and healing the blisters that developed post the second test. Next question, 'so?' Well as the temparature of the manifold increases air heats up and becomes less dense, which means less power. On a force induction car that will make an even greater impact than on a naturally asiparated car. Again, that is why I chose plastic, because it keeps the heat away from an area that should be as cool as possible.
Our heat shield seals the intake area just like brand XX does, the difference is that our shield does not radiate all that heat. The only accurate way to do a test to measure heat in the intake area versus the rest of the engine bay is with equipment I do not own. This equipment would have to have sensored wired so that one could close the hood of the Cooper S and then get readings to an external device. With the hood open, it makes no sense to measure temperatures in the intake area vs the rest of the engine bay because no one will drive with an open hood.
MINIAC@MINI2 - The design is similar the material is not. During our dyno the hood was open and would not involve the heat shield as ambient air was always present and circulating over the entire engine bay. If anything, the air blowing from the front would hit the heat shield and deflect away from the filter. Why the difference? I believe our kit is the only one to use the K&N XStream filter. I choose this filter because it did make a small difference on my E36 M3 (plus it sounds really good :smile: ). It is more expensive then most other filters (accept maybe ITG), but I believe it works better! Secondly, our kit uses a honed connector which is shaped more like a velocity stack )( than just a plain piece of aluminum pipe which has been cleaned and polished/anodized. Lastely, the car took well to this mod. The air/fuel shows a very rich state in the upper range. So maybe we did flow more air than brand X and this produced a bit more power. The rest is what you seen in the dyno chart. There were no tricks or 'enhancements'. You see a plain ol dyno result from a DynoJet dyno. :smile:
Ohhh, and you guys are the most eloquent and most polite skeptics that I have yet spoken with. The E36 guys are usually much worse
So thanks for the questions.
_________________
Roman S.
MaxVelocity.net
Ace - The heat shield is not metal at all but instead, plastic. Plastic dissapates heat a lot better and does not radiate heat like common metals. If you took aluminum or steel it would have to be of a greater thickness then the plastic in order to not get as saturated with heat and it would also take longer to cool down. With the thickness of metal that would be required it would be very heavy and difficult to work with.
For example, many new cars come with plastic intake manifolds. Why is that? Well, a plastic manifold IS lighter than say aluminum but that is not the real reason for it. On my M3 I have a plastic intake manifold (that's how it comes stock). I can do a full track session, open the hood and can still put my hand on the intake manifold without burning myself. If I tried the same thing with an aluminum manifold, I would probaby be putting burn cream and healing the blisters that developed post the second test. Next question, 'so?' Well as the temparature of the manifold increases air heats up and becomes less dense, which means less power. On a force induction car that will make an even greater impact than on a naturally asiparated car. Again, that is why I chose plastic, because it keeps the heat away from an area that should be as cool as possible.
Our heat shield seals the intake area just like brand XX does, the difference is that our shield does not radiate all that heat. The only accurate way to do a test to measure heat in the intake area versus the rest of the engine bay is with equipment I do not own. This equipment would have to have sensored wired so that one could close the hood of the Cooper S and then get readings to an external device. With the hood open, it makes no sense to measure temperatures in the intake area vs the rest of the engine bay because no one will drive with an open hood.
MINIAC@MINI2 - The design is similar the material is not. During our dyno the hood was open and would not involve the heat shield as ambient air was always present and circulating over the entire engine bay. If anything, the air blowing from the front would hit the heat shield and deflect away from the filter. Why the difference? I believe our kit is the only one to use the K&N XStream filter. I choose this filter because it did make a small difference on my E36 M3 (plus it sounds really good :smile: ). It is more expensive then most other filters (accept maybe ITG), but I believe it works better! Secondly, our kit uses a honed connector which is shaped more like a velocity stack )( than just a plain piece of aluminum pipe which has been cleaned and polished/anodized. Lastely, the car took well to this mod. The air/fuel shows a very rich state in the upper range. So maybe we did flow more air than brand X and this produced a bit more power. The rest is what you seen in the dyno chart. There were no tricks or 'enhancements'. You see a plain ol dyno result from a DynoJet dyno. :smile:
Ohhh, and you guys are the most eloquent and most polite skeptics that I have yet spoken with. The E36 guys are usually much worse
So thanks for the questions. _________________
Roman S.
MaxVelocity.net
1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: SF Bay Area
>>
>>
>>Same design as Madness/Rogue, Mania, Pilo and Pipercross air intake, all of which have been tested at 6-7 hp. Why does this one make more?
>>
>>"Unlike other heat shields made from sheet metal, the MaxVelocity heat shield has been thermoformed". What does this mean?
>>
Also this is an old picture of the prototype. The production version looks a bit different and the connector is black anodized. I'll have new pictures on the website soon.
_________________
Roman S.
MaxVelocity.net
>>
>>Same design as Madness/Rogue, Mania, Pilo and Pipercross air intake, all of which have been tested at 6-7 hp. Why does this one make more?
>>
>>"Unlike other heat shields made from sheet metal, the MaxVelocity heat shield has been thermoformed". What does this mean?
>>
Also this is an old picture of the prototype. The production version looks a bit different and the connector is black anodized. I'll have new pictures on the website soon.
_________________
Roman S.
MaxVelocity.net
1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
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From: SF Bay Area
>>So Roman, would it not be more accurate to run a dyno test and wait like say, an hour with the hood open for it to cool and then run the different test?
Antranik - I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you are asking but we did do a warm up after the car was strapped in, and before actually taking readings. After the first run we turned the car off, talked for a couple of minutes about what we thought we may get with a stock airbox, and then started putting the stock air box on (which is also plastic :smile: kinda cool but don't grab the steering wheel or bad things may happen (ask how I know ).
Antranik - I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you are asking but we did do a warm up after the car was strapped in, and before actually taking readings. After the first run we turned the car off, talked for a couple of minutes about what we thought we may get with a stock airbox, and then started putting the stock air box on (which is also plastic :smile: kinda cool but don't grab the steering wheel or bad things may happen (ask how I know
).
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,319
Likes: 94
From: Tsunami Zone
Roman,
Thanks for the explanation on the heat shield :smile:
Perhaps your website should read:
Kit Includes:
-Thermoformed plastic heat shield
-6061 anodized aluminum velocity stack
-Replacement hose clamp (intake tube to filter)
-K&N XStream series air filter
-Installation instructions
-Mounting hardware
Your filter looks like a K&N RX-4950, which is also used in the Mini Mania and K&N Typhoon air intakes
Once you get an updated image on your website, I'll add your product to the list of available air intakes:
http://www.mini2.com/forum/faq.php?f..._faq_intakes_s
Thanks for the explanation on the heat shield :smile:
Perhaps your website should read:
Kit Includes:
-Thermoformed plastic heat shield
-6061 anodized aluminum velocity stack
-Replacement hose clamp (intake tube to filter)
-K&N XStream series air filter
-Installation instructions
-Mounting hardware
Your filter looks like a K&N RX-4950, which is also used in the Mini Mania and K&N Typhoon air intakes
Once you get an updated image on your website, I'll add your product to the list of available air intakes:
http://www.mini2.com/forum/faq.php?f..._faq_intakes_s
1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: SF Bay Area
>>Roman,
>>
>>Thanks for the explanation on the heat shield :smile:
>>
>>Perhaps your website should read:
>>
>>Kit Includes:
>>-Thermoformed plastic heat shield
>>-6061 anodized aluminum velocity stack
>>-Replacement hose clamp (intake tube to filter)
>>-K&N XStream series air filter
>>-Installation instructions
>>-Mounting hardware
>>
>>Your filter looks like a K&N RX-4950, which is also used in the Mini Mania and K&N Typhoon air intakes
>>
>>Once you get an updated image on your website, I'll add your product to the list of available air intakes:
>>
>>http://www.mini2.com/forum/faq.php?f..._faq_intakes_s
>>
MINIAC@MINI2 - I will make the change on our website. Our kit does use an RX-4950. Like I said, I had the XStream filter on my car and it gave me a bit more power and that is why I used it in this kit. That would be great if you could add my company to your list.
Here is the direct link to the dyno video
>>
>>Thanks for the explanation on the heat shield :smile:
>>
>>Perhaps your website should read:
>>
>>Kit Includes:
>>-Thermoformed plastic heat shield
>>-6061 anodized aluminum velocity stack
>>-Replacement hose clamp (intake tube to filter)
>>-K&N XStream series air filter
>>-Installation instructions
>>-Mounting hardware
>>
>>Your filter looks like a K&N RX-4950, which is also used in the Mini Mania and K&N Typhoon air intakes
>>
>>Once you get an updated image on your website, I'll add your product to the list of available air intakes:
>>
>>http://www.mini2.com/forum/faq.php?f..._faq_intakes_s
>>
MINIAC@MINI2 - I will make the change on our website. Our kit does use an RX-4950. Like I said, I had the XStream filter on my car and it gave me a bit more power and that is why I used it in this kit. That would be great if you could add my company to your list.
Here is the direct link to the dyno video
>> With the hood open, it makes no sense to measure temperatures in the intake area vs the rest of the engine bay because no one will drive with an open hood.
During our dyno the hood was open and would not involve the heat shield as ambient air was always present and circulating over the entire engine bay.
>>
this is one of my pet peeves that i've harped on before, so don't take this personally.
if you ran the test this way against a stock airbox, your test is COMPLETELY UNSCIENTIFIC AND TOTALLY BOGUS.
you eliminated the restrictive inlet tubing tubing and its power robbing 70 degree bend for your inlet, but left it in place for the stock one. ideally both should be tested with a closed hood on a rolling road wind tunnel or as close to that as you can get.
why do the inlet manufacturers keep selling the same old stuff, but leave the single biggest problem with the inlet unaddressed: the poor inlet position and that severe 70 degree bend in flow path. why not redesign a hood/inlet that will make a real difference....
you may ignoire physics, but physics never ignores you,
flyboy2160