Whenever Peter at M7 gets mad because I call his
product Snake Oil, the thread gets pulled.

Now, sometimes I'm ready to have an open discussion
about the theory of operation of a product, and let the vendor
convince me that their product is real and works even if I
didn't get anything out of it.

If it makes sense, I can be convinced.

But the Plasma Booster doesn't make any sense to me and
try as I might, I can't get understandable information out of Peter.

So, I get testy and use the term Snake-Oil, and the thread
gets pulled.

I realize that I'm a pretty hard skeptic. Especially about automotive
related products, but there are plenty of others that have questioned
this particular product, so I'm not alone.

I will try harder in the future to explain my concerns without
using inflamatory terms, but the vendors absolutely need to
come clean or they will lose the trust of the MINI community.

When threads that say bad things about a vendor's products get pulled,
it smells like a payoff to me, and that is a sure way to lose my trust.

 

I think as long as the comments are constructive in some way, or suggesting improvements, etc., you shouldn't have any problems.

I am with you as far as the vendors coming clean when they promote products. I think all of us would like to know how and why their different products work. Upgrades get expensive, so I know for myself, I don't want to waste money on useless mods. Anyway, good thoughts...

Motor on!

 

Hmmm. I can see both side of this.

The consumer wants thorough explanations and accurate info.

The advertiser wants to avoid negative publicity, and the site also wants to keep its vendors happy and the converstations constructive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't vendors have the ability to pull threads? Or is that only true in the Marketplace forum?

Anyway, I think the thread got yanked because of the inflammatory connotation of the phrse "Snake Oil." Maybe it's just a matter of tone.

 

Well, on what basis is his product snake oil? Did you dyno test it? Did you do any testing? Or did the product simply not meet your EXPECTATIONS? (Nod)

Personally, I don't think it does anything of much value (if anything) but I have no scientific basis to prove that.

He's the moderator of the thread. He can moderate it any way he wishes.

-Jim

 

Trippy,

First let me say I have not read every post about the (was it a 350z) getting ripped off.

What I noticed was that the "item" opened on the top of the first page was not sold by M7. I believe it is a different brand then photos of M7's product being shown. Like showing the inside of a Pinto and the outside of a Corvette and saying the inside of this car is ugly?

As I said before why not buy one of M7's and cut it open? I'll put $20.00 toward it. Lets get one, test it, and cut it open and see whats in there.

Earl

 

I'll throw in $20 too. Keep up the good work Trippy.

 

Didn't I read somewhere that Trippy actually had bought the PB? I may be blowin' smoke, but I could swear I saw something to that effect here on NAM...





Clo/Wanda

 

Trippy,

I'd say that I do very much appreciate NAM members like yourself that are not willing to take any vendor claims at face value and look to see what is the "real or hard evidence" that something is doing what is advertised.

This happens in the academic world all the time. Someone has a theory and creates a product then we can test it to see if it does what it is supposed to do. And then we also independently test it again to see if the results are reproducible.

The exchange of information helps the consumers to understand the theory and the product itself rather than take it for granted. The information may also help the vendor to discover additional insight for further product development.

The key with this type of discussion especially on a public forum like NAM is to keep the threads civil. It is human nature to get defensive at times. Constructive respectful criticism is always valuable. It's easy to see if the responses to questions are making sense or not.

So in response to your thread title:
"Don't say bad things about performance products in this forum. "
I'd say if I have evidence to present that disproves a claim about any performance product then I'd want to make that known for the benefit of the NAM membership. If I don't have hard evidence then I'd have to be careful on what I can say.

It is always up to each reader to evaluate the merits of said products and decide if the benefit is worth the cost and the potential side effects. Is more good done than bad? Is it a waste of time? Is it of limited value given the price?
Does it adversely affect the reliability of the MINI?

There are only two moderators for this forum currently and they are listed at the top. The thread can be pulled at any time for review if the discussion is not offering anything positive. Being pulled is not an automatic response to a negative product post. Lets please keep our comments civil.

Thanks very much for starting this discussion. :smile:

 

>>Didn't I read somewhere that Trippy actually had bought the PB? I may be blowin' smoke, but I could swear I saw something to that effect here on NAM...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Clo/Wanda

You're right, Clo. I don't know if he bought it or had one for testing, but he ran it for a while and reported that it didn't seem to do anything, subjectively. There's a thread about it out there for those willing to search for it.

 

Clo
You talking about this post?
Charles

PB Post

 

>>Clo
>>You talking about this post?
>>Charles
>>
>>PB Post

That's the one!

And here's the Webb Motorsports review of said product.

 

>>Clo
>>You talking about this post?
>>Charles



Clo/Wanda

 

I did have a PB on loan for testing, and it didn't make any performance difference,
or any change in fuel economy.

 

I refuse to buy a PB and take it apart and release any
information about what I find in there because it
is possibly illegal.

Reverse engineering and disclosing information about
a product is not a nice thing to do, and I won't do that.

Now, if you take one apart, you can describe qualitatively
what you find in there, so if you find a PCB with LEDs
on it and that's it, then you can say "I found a PCB with
the three LEDs visible from the outside of the unit and
no other parts" but if there are other parts on there, you
can only give things like the number of parts, but not much
of a description of them.

Before releasing this kind of information, I would look into
the DMCA (Digital Milennium Copyright Act) which is
trying to make all reverse engineering of hardware illegal,
but it has not been thoroughly tested yet.

 

The thread was pulled because the mods need time to clean it up....

Trippy's comments directed toward M7 were not relavent to the topic of the thread...the 350Z scam and the replies have gotten personal.

I intend to remove these replies and return the thread to circulation.

Personally I think it is appropriate that members challenge vendors on their products and the vendors have an opportunity to explain/defend their products. In this particular case M7 is the sole supplier of the Plasma Booster for the MINI. It is a product using the technology of Ignition Solutions so if you aren't getting the answers you want from Peter contact them. I know that they offer products for many other brands so I'm sure you can find reviews on other brand sites like [url=http://reviews.stangnet.com/review.cgi?ID=349]stangnet.com[/ur].

While I commend everyone on debunking potential "snake oil" this has gotten to feel very personal. The purpose of the site is to put as much information in front of everyone as possible so that you can take it, ponder it, second guess it, research it further, etc. so you can, ultimately, make up your own mind. Based on the reviews I've seen from other sites for similar products (other brands) and the other products that M7 is working on I feel that Peter deserves the opportunity to promote his products without being compared to the issues that the 350Z has been associated with.

Now...I'll go clean up the 350Z thread and return it to circulation...

Mark

 

Let's say a vendor wanted to sell a product called "Snake Oil" that was supposed to keep our leather seats nice and supple. Then, someone on the forum proved that indeed, there was no snake in there at all. If the forum member posted that and exclaimed that the product is "Not Snake Oil !", would that thread get removed?

 

I think Randy's evaluation of this fine product says it best:

_________________
B.A.M.A. (Birmingham Area MINI Association)

oin us on Dec 6: Covered Bridge Cruise and Poker Run

 

Scrutiny is good, in all aspects of life. I first want to say that...

I do feel that if one thinks otherwise, or differently, as metioned above by someone, some proof would be desirable that refutes the claims of a mod. Just as the retailer, vendor or tuner should when making the claim initially...

Peter had done so with various reprsentations, including that of other makes and models, and even brought-on Ulf to address the highly technical questions.

Independent testing by a highly regarded tuner revealed that he was pleasantly surprised, and did indeed see some power gains. And while I can recall only a couple or so folks in these forums who didn't experience this modification favorably, many others expressed postive feedback, including myself.

I might add (again) that when I put the PB on, a big wish was for it to somehow resolve an RPM idle fluctation I've been having. I was really bummed as I sat in my driveway realizing that I still had that problem, post PB. I took her for a spin a little later, and I was feeling something different. It was crisper, more responsive, more jumpy. At the time I had stock plugs and wires. A week or so later I added Magnecor wires and IK22's, and felt no difference. Maybe I would have without the PB though... The point I'm trying to make is that I was not looking to feel such a difference, but I did. Others have as well, and testing has indicated that there is a difference to merit those feelings...

If another feels differntly that is fine of course. To discuss it's merits, and debate that here is fine and healthy, as most would agree. But when one turns against the product, I'd want to see documentation and evidence to support that as well. I'm always open to that, and ecourage it...

I think even more than the reference to snake oil, was the tying-in of the PB to an otherwise blatanly obvious fraud in that thread (350 Z). Not saying that it was done intentionally, but that is what one is left with who reads that thread. And with the information currenlty out there, that would be a very unfair assessment to make.

When it comes to a car's electircal system, it is easy for many of us to get lost, and not understand. I know that about 1/2 way through Ulf's discourse, I was a little confused. It is easier to question and not believe in things we don't know as well or see as we would with other mods...

Criticism and scrutiny are good. We all know about hp claims. It seems that they are often proven to be inflated, or a very best case scenario. This forum can and should be used for such, when there is proof. I'd bet that the tread would not get yanked then...

Just my thoughts...

_________________
2003 IB MCS

 

>>Let's say a vendor wanted to sell a product called "Snake Oil" that was supposed to keep our leather seats nice and supple. Then, someone on the forum proved that indeed, there was no snake in there at all. If the forum member posted that and exclaimed that the product is "Not Snake Oil !", would that thread get removed?

I would say that the thread would stand.
"snake oil" might be the name of the product (even trademarked?) Tongue in cheek name of course.
Does it indeed do as good a job at keeping leather seats nice and supple as other leather products designed to do the same job? If so then OK.

If the product label had on it "made with authentic snake oil" and if no snake oil was found on analysis that would be something to argue about.

 

I have to agree with Trippy, I would not advise revealing any potential technical aspects of the internal workings of the PB. I have no doubt that there is a circuit board inside that does in fact do exactly what Ulf says it does. I do not however feel trusting enough of the product to spend that much money to get 1 or 2 horsepower and 3 or 4 ft. lbs of torque, if you get that much. I don't know if the Plasm Booster does anything, I only know what I read and so far the nays are outweighing yays on this product.

As for people taking things personally and debates escallating into insult matches, I agree. People need to chill and unfortunately the vendors who participate in these insult matches make themselves look very bad in the eyes of the consumer. I work sales on pure commission and I would never argue with a customer or make snide remarks. If someone doesn't like my product, fine, have a nice day, hope you like whatever you find. It doesn't bother me in the least. If Peter is sure his PB works, is great and is a benefit, my poor opinion shouldn't matter a bit.

 

So, if I try out a product and honestly think it is mostly bull (mostly and not completely because let's say the seller sells it with all the good intentions of the world), and I call it BS, then I am essentially calling it a waste of money. Then I am also calling it baloney, nonsense, hooey and since we have all these similar words/ideas that all mean the same thing (the product lacks significance). Now what difference does it make if I use the words "snake oil." If someone wants to break down the difference, please don't waste the time.

I just think it's really sad that someone can't fully give their true feelings or thoughts out on a product because well, the provider of the product has interest vested in the forum and vice versa. No amount of cleaning up will really get rid of the stains, what's done is done.

_________________
-Anto. 2003 MINI Cooper S DS/B Bought 2/9/03. 16" R84 X-lite, DSC, MFSW, H/K System. It's All Excellent.
Mods: Pilo Racing Intake 5/24. Alta 15% Reduced Boost Pulley 7/10. Quicksilver Cat-Back Exhaust 8/18.

 

Greetings.......

I understand that my product has it's nay sayers and i'm fine with that, it's like chocolate not everyone
likes it.
Where it becomes a problem is when certain people start to trash the product without even trying it
or when a particular forum member call me and very nicely offers to test the unit on the car and
because he's a scientist prommises to do a battery of tests with graphs, shots of osciloscope traces
and all the scientific breakdowns available to him.......fab I'm all for it. I send him a unit on good faith
no charge.......months goes by, no phone calls, no emails, no PM's not a single blip on the horizon etc.

More time goes by and I decide that the alloted time for this experiment is over, I PM the member
telling him very nicely mind you that it would be nice to get back the unit or if he decided to keep it
to pay me.......Next day the member commes on the forum(it's amazing how quiet it was to this point)
absolutely denounse my PB as crap not worth $10.00........something is not right here.

And finaly why is it that a vendor can not say his piece without being attacked for being defensive
it's not fair..... I should have the same right as all the other members on this forum.
And to cap it of do not come and say that there has not been enough information about the PB on the
board....there's tons of it, graphs, traces and even an appearance of the inventor explaining every
single detail exept a picture of the inside of the unit.

And as always call me if you have any questions

peter horvath
562-712-3279

 

we can solve this dilemma very easily: put the PB on "mythbusters"

http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/my...thbusters.html

flyboy2160

 

>>we can solve this dilemma very easily: put the PB on "mythbusters"
>>
>>http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/my...thbusters.html
>>
>>flyboy2160
>>
>>

If we all submit this I but they would do it.

Earl

 

On Monday I will be closing my private label agreement with TornadoAir and will become the sole supplier of "Double->->Charger" for the Mini. For $249.95 (half the current EBay price of a perfectly good supercharger that has been ripped out by an Authorized BMW dealer under the guise of replacing it with a superior product) you can put a SECOND supercharger in your MCS in about 5 minutes. After EXTENSIVE research, development and dyno testing, I have found that improvements of up to 2 horsepower and 1-2 mpg may occur especially if the ambient temperature drops by 5 degrees or more between dyno runs.

Please Andy, no sarcastic snake-oil comments...I'm a sensative guy who would probably make a bundle if I was to do this!