Peter,
Please defend the product.

Ulf said he would post graphs of the secondary current on a MINI
several months ago, and he never posted such graphs.

I said I would post the fuel economy gains, and I have posted the
fuel economy graphs several times.

Here is the latest. Can YOU tell me when I had the Plasma Booster installed?


I doubt it.

I agree that there have been many many graphs posted, but whenever I question
one of them (peak-to-peak spark current for example) I get only
puzzling hand-waving answers.

That makes me think the product does not work, and I get annoyed.

And then when you refuse to post information about the patent numbers, I REALLY
get convinced tha tthe product is in trouble.

You can fix things just by posting answers to our questions. Simple as that.

 

I put the plasma booster on my car over 6 weeks ago. Car ran smoother from the moment it started and was more responsive in the higher rpm range but I was also able to pull a higher gear at a lower speed . Told the shop that does all my work and the owner also has a S bought one .I was very intersted to see his responce. Without prompting the first thing he said was " smoother with more pep up high ". He tunes cars for a living and makes a good one at that . If a professional car guy can feel the differance and confirms my impressions I really dont need to see pie charts . The most comical thing to me is the time and effort people put into discussing this item and the cost of it. There are more than a few here and you know who you are that have spent a minium of 10 hrs on this topic. Divide the cost of the plasma bosster by 10 and you all were already working long enough to have bought the damn thing and that is with ahourly rate of only 25/ hr. As with any forum you will get more post from unhappy people than those who like it. The ney sayers will APPEAR to be more abundant but that is just a " forum Illusion " . I dont think a company with as much as stake and market savey as Mini Mania would back a bogus item and risk their reputation.Bottom line is it works I know it and so the silent majority. EOM

 

Trippy......

Suddenly a graph appeared after I busted you for lying to me, you took advantage of my kindness had the unit
longer then you should have and only returned it after I asked for it.

Did you call me for any clarification on the products, it's technical aspects or any other pertinant questions... no!!!

You did not have the decency to call me and discuss your findings before you slammed my product in an open forum
in my book that is non ethical.

Your also complaining that I'm not stepping up and answer your technical questions....I have many times, but
you seem to forget that I took the time to get the Inventor of the PB Ulf Ahrens on the forum answering all
your questions and what prevents you from calling Ignition solutions directly to get your curiosity quenched?

Or......Could it be that you want to make my life misserable for the fun of it...I do beleive so.

Please Trippy go away...talk about something else you made a point and that's it.


And as always I like to to talk shop, call me with any questions.

peter horvath
562-712-3270

 

I miss Randy

 

I had Peter's Booster for 6 weeks which I don't think is
an unreasonable time to get fuel economy numbers from it.

I didn't call him about problems since I didn't have any problems.
It just didn't make any difference in my car's performance.

It didn't seem reasonable to ask for a test unit and then call and
complain about not getting super-duper performance gains since
the whole POINT was to see if I saw any performance improvements
in the first place.

I'm not sure now exactly I lied to him, but it's possible that he
thought I was going to do something that I didn't do. Sorry about that.

Add Peter, if you think you or Ulf answered all the questions,
you should go back and read the threads you are referring to.

Neither you nor Ulf answered THE question: How can the PB
have lower primary voltage and current and create a larger spark?

Ulf said he would post secondary current data, and never did.

I'm not going to call Ignition Solutions since they don't post here,
and don't even sell their product here. You do. YOU are the vendor here.

I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to make your life hell. I'm trying to
save my MINI buddies some money.

And by the way, several people agree with me from the messages I am getting,
so I don't think I'm out on the fringe here.

I will continue to point out the questions about this product, and whenever
you have the answers, I am ready to be convinced. I change my mind all the time
about things when there is evidence supporting the claim. I have NO
problem with that.

 

This seems like a fair and reasonable request.

Peter - I know you are busy and so I would be happy to contact Ulf and ask him to jump on and post the follow up information that is being requested. He has already registered on the site as Ignition Solutions.

Mark

 

Trippy,

Did you even give the unit back?

Just by observing, you have something more personal against Peter other than performance increase. It's so obvious, but of course you won't admit it.

6 weeks and no contact? Why if I'd given one of my products out to test it and I didn't hear from them for 6 weeks, that's a little fishy.

You lied because, you promised a battery test graph (which shows up just now, hmmm...)

BTW You're overdoing it

 

>>I send him a unit on good faith
>>no charge.......months goes by, no phone calls, no emails, no PM's not a single blip on the horizon etc.

===>Man, I can't stand flakes . You don't like it & it's not affecting you, just look the other way, dude.

 

One more thing: getting mods is all about fun. Nothing life or death about any of it. We see something we like & plunk down some change for it/them. [That's right -- "change". Don't buy a thing if the means aren't there for you. Only an idiot would do that.] Some work, some don't. No guarantees in anything. Regardless, no matter what anyone does to a 20k, 30k, 40k, 50k car, they're all still little fishes in the big ponds (NASCAR, F1, right?!). They're just CARS, not the ER!! C'mon, take a chill pill & motor on in your own individual way. No stress, man. Damn, then again... I seem to be pretty stressed myself right now . Will now follow my own words. Take care & happy holidays, all

 

I like NAM due to the mix of characters we get here, especially those with "condesegnorance".

 

>>I like NAM due to the mix of characters we get here, especially those with "condesegnorance".
Hey
Call me ignorant but, just what is condesegnorance? Went to Dictionary.com and got this - No entry found for condesegnorance.
Charles

 

Trippy,
You're only supposed to drive downhill after installing the Plasmabooster.

 

I wouldn't be suprised if those who noticed improvements with any of the ignition mods (boosters, wires, coils...you name it) couldn't have achieved the same impressions of smoothness, etc. by simply changing to fresh sparkplugs.

 

Though this discussion is centering around the PB, there's and underlying sentiment that some vendors should pay attention to. If you are going to try and sell your product on the forum you need to answer ANY questions about it that are posted to the best of your ability. You're posting on a forum where a lot of people have some expertise in automotive technology. You should expect some pretty indepth questions.

I've run into two instances so far where vendors have blatantly disregarded detailed questions on the operation, installation and/or construction of their products. Maybe they felt answering them would cause doubts about the product. Maybe they figured the sale wasn't worth the time to answer. Who knows? I sure as heck, don't. All I know is that when it happened it gave me the feeling that I wasn't being told the truth. Needless to say these vendors didn't get my money then, and because of the events, won't ever get any of it in the future.

 

>>I wouldn't be suprised if those who noticed improvements with any of the ignition mods (boosters, wires, coils...you name it) couldn't have achieved the same impressions of smoothness, etc. by simply changing to fresh sparkplugs.

Or just get the v.36 software flashed! That will smoooooth it out

I'm not saying anything bad about any performance product being discussed. I am just saying that these particular products do not have a performance application for my car.

 

>>I like NAM due to the mix of characters we get here, especially those with "condesegnorance".

Andy - Your nugatory and inutile semantics bring forth my most sincere hosanna.

 

Personally, I don't see how any ignition products out there provide anything but a more consistent spark. I wrote a dissertation on the subject awhile back about the Nology wires. A more consistent spark WILL make your car run smoother but that's about it. Theoretically, it may produce more 'power' - theoretically. Theoretically, a more consistent spark could lead to better fuel economy - theoretically.

I think all the of the ignition upgrades are simply minor tweaks, and that's it. They are for people who feel the need to have all the gadgets and whizbangs available. Randy's comment on the subject was absolutely dead on - if you feel the need to have it under your hood, go for it.

I trust Randy's test of the PB... the funny thing about dyno runs are that you can have that much of a variance from run to run WITHOUT changing a thing on the car. So, who's to say the PB makes more power? Then again, who's to say it doesn't?

This product just isn't something that's going to make massive gains, like any other ignition-related product, and M7 doesn't claim that it will, either. If they claimed it produced 20% more power and fuel economy, well then I'd say that you might have a beef. But to argue over the relative merits of this particular product is just plain silly. If people want to buy it and feel like it adds something, who really cares? Don't we still live in a capitalist society?

 

Can someone take the time to clearly explain the following:

1) What is secondary current ?
2) The significance of secondary current in this discussion.
3) What types of characteristics are we looking for in the secondary current data assuming secondary current data is presented.

Please make it simple if you can. I'm handicapped by having a mechanical engineering background.

 

This space intentionally left blank.

(Since I wrote a reply below)

 

If there is something that I don't like about a product, after installing it and/or testing it, my first inclination is to contact the person who sold it to me, not to take the issue to friends, or even a larger forum.

I have found gaps in directions/instructions, or confusing, even faulty information. I called the vendor/manufacture to let them know. They assisted me, thanked me, and said that they would make changes in the documentation. When after installing the upgrade/mod, if an issue surfaces, or something doesn't seem right, I contact the vendor directly. EVERY time I have been satisfied with the response - fast and empathetic. This includes Madness, Randy, M7 (Peter), and most recently the great bunch at BMP/PROMINI.

I have two out-standing issues now. Randy, bless his heart, has still not charged me for almost half a year for an item while we seek a resolution. At that time, I also purchased several other products, and since I was going to make one large purchase, he is yet to charge me for anything - well over 1k retail. I didn't ask this of Randy, he just didn't charge me, and we've talked about it. I then got something from Peter that seems to have exacerbated the issue quite a bit. I took it up with him personally. We feel that it might be tied to the previous issue. Peter said to we should wait until we get the first one rectified, and if that doesn’t fix matters, then we will address it differently. We agreed to wait, and I have yet to pay the man in full, and it has been a couple months…

I just believe that there is a right way and a wrong way to conduct oneself. This is especially more so these days where the wrong way, with these forums, can be very detrimental. I’m dealing with these issues personally with these guys. If they for some reason were not providing service, or stiffing me, and after several attempts to make it right, got no where, I’d share my experience with the community. I have not needed to do so, thankfully. I got matters fixed, and continue down that path.

I might add, that besides making me feel good for handling matters in this fashion, I have received the respect and appreciation of them in return in the form of emails, free shipping, or heck, even a free product as a thank you for my professionalism. That was not my aim of course, but it did make me feel good. I’m a firm believer that if something is not right, one should have the decency to voice the concerns with the supplier directly. I’ve received such affirmation from our MINI gurus.

When I have had questions about an item (not always the MINI) for which the vendor didn’t have all the details, it is common, more often than not, to be directed to the manufacturer of the product. It seems that the better companies will have the right number for you to call to get the scoop. Peter got the guy here on this board who typed volumes of information and addressed many questions! That is above and beyond, in many respects.

If you don’t like it, for whatever reason, don’t buy it. That seems to be the mentality of most. And it sounds as though Peter provided it free of charge for evaluation. As far as not returning it promptly or only upon inquiry, or providing data at a certain time, I will not go there. I don’t want to comment on one’s actions or how they handle their affairs. I simply write all of this to share what I feel, what I feel to be right, and what has worked for me…

It appears that the proof against the PB is still being sought. Even though more clarification is desired, and I understand and can appreciate that, the slamming of the product was initiated and has continued because one last explanation was not addressed.

I don’t expect Peter to know the minute details of the PB just as though I wouldn’t expect him or another MINI vendor to tell me the exact flow dynamics of particular header, as an example. I would inquire with the designer to get their reasoning and rationale, and to understand what it does, etc. Ignitions Solutions (IS) is the knowledge source here.

I have contacted IS about plug gapping, and they got back with me. A phone call to them, or email I’m sure might have gotten the type of answers one desires. It sounds as though Ulf will be brought back again because of this public display. I thank Mark for taking the initiative.

I truly hope that Ulf or whoever from IS will be able to satisfactorily address the questions here. And if not, that certainly is no justification for the trashing of the product, and the slanderous nature toward Peter at M7. Information is still being sought (apparently), the case still being made, the jury should still be listening intently… yet, there is a slight lynch-mob mentality that is not fair, whatever the outcome of the PM might be.

I am no automotive expert, well maybe amongst my family and friends, but certainly not compared to a good number of you guys. I have learned much from these discussions. I can certainly say that Trippy is much more knowledgeable than me in these matters. I hope that I don’t come across as otherwise. My degrees are in the legal field, but I love cars and have a passion to work on many things. I have a deep sense of ethics and equity in all of my relationships and communications, and I feel that this could have been handled much more effectively.

I remain a fan of those with a critical eye and knowledge where I lack. It is appreciated.

 

>>I like NAM due to the mix of characters we get here, especially those with "condesegnorance".

===>ha ha ha

 

Please understand that I am trying to make this a simplified
version of what goes on, so there will be some parts of this
explanation that are not superbly precise and accurate so
that the explantaion is understandable to most people reading it.

>>1) What is secondary current ?

The coil is a transformer. It has two coils of wire. One is called
the primary and the other is called the secondary.

The primary side has fewer turn in the coil than the secondary.

A transformer can convert from one voltage to another depending
on the ration of the number of turns in the primary coil and the number
of turns in the secondary coil.

If there are twice as many turns on the secondary as on the primary,
you will get twice the voltage out of the secondary as you put in
the primary.

The current in the secondary coil will be inversly proportional to the
ratio of the number of turns on the primary and the secondary so
if the secondary has twice as many turns as the primary, you get
not 2 times the current, but 1/2 times the current.

This current is the "Secondary current"

>>2) The significance of secondary current in this discussion.

The secondary winding of the coil is connected through the plug wire to the
center electrode in the spark plug, and the other side of the secondary
is connected to the outer electrode(s) in the spark plug, so the voltage
and current in the secondary side of the coil are what makes the spark.

>>3) What types of characteristics are we looking for in the secondary current data
>> assuming secondary current data is presented.

The secondary current should rise quickly. If it rises slowly, the spark
is "retarded" which is the opposite of "advanced" and reduces the performance
of the engine.

More secondary current means a hotter spark. This might get the
fuel burning faster. I don't know.

The first rise of secondary current is the spark plug firing. This gets
the ignition cycle going, and a flame races away from the plug, burning
the fuel as it goes and leaving unburnable "exhaust" in it's wake.

It is not clear to me how extra sparks after the first one will help
since the fuel has been burned in that region of the combustion chamber.

>>Please make it simple if you can.
>> I'm handicapped by having a mechanical engineering background.

How was that?

Now, you can see from the posted graphs that the primary voltage after
the PB is installed is lower.

The primary voltage will by the rules of Ohm's law, determine the primary
current, and through the turns ratio, determine the secondary voltage and
current. I am going to leave the details out for the sake of brevity. We can go over
them if someone really wants to.

What goes in the primary comes out the secondary.

So, with a lower primary voltage, you get a lower secondary voltage and current
than the stock ignition system.

And this is the basis for the PB's claims of performance gains.

That's in a nutshell my problem with this product, and why it keeps coming up
over and over again.

It's not just that I didn't like it, or that I didn't get any gains, or that I have any
problem with Peter. You don't see me discussing ANY of his other products
which I probably would be doing if I had some kind of personal problem with him.

You can even read where I said he was a great guy on the telephone. Does that
sound like a vandetta to you?

I didn't even pay for the thing, so I don;t have any money invested. This is for the
benefit of others who want to get their $250 worth from a product.

So, if I can explain this clearly (I hope you agree), why can't the vendor explain
this clearly?

 

> How was that?

Thanks for breaking it down for me.

 

trippy,
thanks for this excellent description of the phenomenon and your concerns about it and the laws of physics.

i too, handicapped by mechanical and aeronautical engineering degrees and classses, could follow it!

flyboy2160

 

There may be good news coming on the technical front.

It looks like ignitionsolutions is redoing their PB technical
information. Click on the PB section

It will be interesting to compare the old information with the
new information when it gets completed.

That information could completely change my impression
of the company if not the actual performance of this product.

I have cached copies of the low-res old imformation, but I
would like to get a copy of this:
http://www.ignitionsolutions.com/products/ images/SecondaryOEM.gif
Does anyone have a copy of that image handy?