It validates what I feel, and others as well.
>>
I'm assuming you mean that you can feel the smoothness. Can you feel the .5 or so hp, or the 1-2lbs of torque?

 

Ignition 'enhancement' units have some, gone, and changed shape over the years, with varying forms of success. Think back to the late 60s (if you are that old and/or are familiar with these item) when the first 'capacitive discharge' ignition systems first hit the market. These were the first forms of add-on electronic ignition 'amplifiers' to be used in an era of point-contact mechanical systems. Given the inefficiencies and fickle nature of these old fashioned setups (needed constant tuneups and component replacement, etc), along with their relatively low output, these 'amplifiers' often helped with overall performance, cold starts, etc.

Fast-forward a bit to the early-mid 70s, when emissions regulations began to come into play. The constant need for retuning the points systems along with advancing technology put the first factory electronic ignition systems in place. Hotter, more consistent sparks, no points to wear out or need adjustments, and emissions control was tighter. During this era, the add-in 'enhancements' werent as plentiful, however, there were upgraded coils and trigger amplifiers as well as multiple-spark amplifiers showing up. Being that the factory stuff was already a vast improvement over the old points setups, the gains werent always so dramatic, except in very high performance packages.

Forward into the mid '80s where computer controls and fuel injection became standard. These sophisticated systems were responsible for increasing the efficiency even more, as well as lower the need for the usual tune-up rituals, mostly due to government requirements as well as the ability of technology to offer this as a selling point. This only continued to grow more and more sophisticated through the 90s to the point where even a cheapo base-model econobox Cavalier has a fuel injection system who's technology rivals that of race cars only 10 years prior. Are there improvement that can be made? Sure, but we are reaching the point of diminished returns.

Take our MINIs in the present day. Very sophisticated, integrated ignition and injection systems. Can they be improved? Sure. The ECU software is being tweaked and enhanced all the time. The ignition system, while in itself is quite simple, is backed with years of design developement. Couple that with a combustion process that is highly efficient because of combustion chamber design and accurate fuel injection and you have a bulletproof package, stock. Making the spark any hotter without altering the timing of this event, or the style of spark plug, will not get you much. It's not like the old days, where you had a cylinder full of badly mixed fuel and air being lit with a spark of questionable power. Instead, you have a paired distributorless coil system which has the luxury of dwelling for a good part of the 360 degrees of crank rotation before unloading that energy into a pair of plugs. The stuff of dreams in the 60s.

(I must add that nowadays, distributorless ignition systems with one coil per single or pair of cylinders are almost the norm. Very hot, accurate and high energy setups. Manufacturers are boasting about a coil on each plug nowadays. They forget that the Ford model T had a coil-per-cylinder setup! So, it's nothing new.

To sum it up: The PB probably does what it is claimed to do. But it is enhancing something that is already quite powerful and efficient already.

Just my 20 millidollars worth.

_________________
"Earl Grey" - '03 MCS, DS over DS, 17" R85s, NAV, DSC (often turned off!), Packs #1 and #3, Rally lights, etc, etc. Perf Mods by the boatload, on the way! Fulton, MD. FRS 7-21
Let's Get Small!

 

>>>> It validates what I feel, and others as well. Randy does not have to choose to carry this product, but he does.
>>
>>I think that's incorrect. Please correct me if i'm mistaken about this.
>>
>>I just looked at webbmotorsports.com, and I can't find Randy carrying this product.
>>
>>Maybe he did make a choice about it's value. I can't say why he doesn't have it on his website.

I read Randy's review of the PB
http://www.webbmotorsports.com/forum...topic.php?t=26
At the end of it, Randy wrote-Quote:
Bottom Line

If you like to have neat stuff in your engine compartment, this is the product for you. If you have done everything else for the same price range and want that little bit extra, this is for you. If you want the best bang for your buck, and are looking for a cost effective first mod, this isn't it. I believe there is a real market for this product for the first couple reasons though, and it is available for those who have to have it from Webb Motorsports.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Hope that helps!

Randy
720-841-1002
------------------
Clearly Webbmotorsports carries the PB. Not all products that Randy carries will be on the website-this is common for him, it's hard to keep up with everything when busy.

I have the PB installed along with the full Pilo ignition upgrade. I didn't have any throttle or smoothness problems before I did those two upgrades and I don't have any new problems since then. Small gains or changes in HP or torque I have not been able to appreciate nor any significant change in gas mileage. I have no plans to change my set up.

I would be interested for Ulf to address any concerns NAM members have regarding the PB.

 

Norwegian scientists have recently discovered that lemmings fitted with the M7 Plasma Booster leap 2% farther to their deaths and that their coats are considerably smoother.

 

BlueMCS,

That gets the "Post Of The Year" award from me

 

I'll post more on the subject tomorrow, but here are my initial thoughts...

First off, let's get one thing straight - VOLTAGE is what does the work in an ignition system, NOT current. Current is pretty much irrelevant as far as I am concerned. The coils in our cars are really nothing more than fancy transformers. Since we are dealing with DC current, there are several things we could do to improve the performance:

1. Change the pulse from a square to a sawtooth. Pulse modification can and will make a BIG difference. A sawtooth pulse would allow more peak voltage. It would seem that most auto manufacturers do that today.

2. On said sawtooth pulse, drop it faster after the peak. The faster you drop it, the faster the field collapses, the 'hotter' the spark will be. If you look at Ignitions Solutions website, you will notice that the ramp of the secondary spark voltage is significantly narrower - meaning the ramp is faster, and the dropoff is faster and has a significantly lower point AFTER discharge. That WILL make a difference, and WILL produce more spark energy. The pulses afterwards may condition the signal, or at least that's my guess - notice how the stock curve asymptotically approaches the starting point...

3. Modifying the pulse will change the frequency. Changing the frequency means you can filter the signal better, which may also lead to more consistency.

IMHO, the Plasma Booster would probably cost someone about $10 to build - if they are simply modifying the pulse, that part is about $5.

The only other thing I can note is that nearly all of the independent verifications of installations ALL showed a gain in both hp and torque. While not HUGE in nature, they are gains. I'm sure that some applications would show more gains than others - especially cars with older technology ignition systems (e.g. maybe a square pulse instead of a sawtooth).

IMHO, the fact that someone decided to take the time to invent this, invested his time and money, and turned it into a successful business is a testiment to entrepreneurship. And, he's obviously got a good PR firm behind him, getting plenty of press coverage and the like. And, engineering-wise, this ain't rocket science, nor can it be completely dismissed. It also goes to show that car manufacturers are tuning and tweaking to the point where there is little ground to be made on the electronics front, with the exception of modifying fuel curves, timing, etc.

 

Trippy is just an antagonist. He posts just to antagonize other people, which is probably why Peter defended himself. Then he makes this thread to throw his temper tantrum. Trippy has done this before in a post on a book the"Fibronnici sequence" where "Mark" talked about what he read and the equations he found on the internet(Mark stated that this was what he found by looking it up. and that he wasn't an expert) Trippy immediatley harrased and ridiculed him. All other posts from him are just as hostile. He stated that he didn't believe Mightyminiz review of the PB, said it was too positive and that he was probably paid to say so.(Maybe a fair assumption) But when doing scientific theary you generally disregard the highest positive(mightyminiz) and the lowest negative(Trippy) so scientifically Trippy voids his own opinion. when given the graphs he says I don't believe them I want more. when given more he still says I don't believe it I want more. When given who to talk he doesn't call the person he goes to a .gov address and says I couldn't find anything. I picture him closing his eyes sticking his fingers in his ears saying I don't believe, I don't believe. The only way Trippy would give the PB a good review was if it gave him an extra 40 MPG, 30 extra horses, and cooked him breakfast in the mornings.....not a real objectionable opinion. Randy gave it a fair review an opinion and review I will respect. does this thing work( I don't know) will I buy one (maybe,maybe not)

 

>>IMHO, the Plasma Booster would probably cost someone about $10 to build - if they are simply modifying the pulse, that part is about $5.

Does that include the blue LED?

--
Cheese

 

MODERATERS.....why don't you lock this thread? It's gone well and away from the original topic. It's grown to 4 pages now....at least 2 1/2 of which are lending nothing positive to the discussion.

Please, please, end it's misery!!

 

>>Trippy is just an antagonist. He posts just to antagonize other people, which is probably why Peter defended himself. Then he makes this thread to throw his temper tantrum. Trippy has done this before in a post on a book the"Fibronnici sequence" where "Mark" talked about what he read and the equations he found on the internet(Mark stated that this was what he found by looking it up. and that he wasn't an expert) Trippy immediatley harrased and ridiculed him. All other posts from him are just as hostile. He stated that he didn't believe Mightyminiz review of the PB, said it was too positive and that he was probably paid to say so.(Maybe a fair assumption) But when doing scientific theary you generally disregard the highest positive(mightyminiz) and the lowest negative(Trippy) so scientifically Trippy voids his own opinion. when given the graphs he says I don't believe them I want more. when given more he still says I don't believe it I want more. When given who to talk he doesn't call the person he goes to a .gov address and says I couldn't find anything. I picture him closing his eyes sticking his fingers in his ears saying I don't believe, I don't believe. The only way Trippy would give the PB a good review was if it gave him an extra 40 MPG, 30 extra horses, and cooked him breakfast in the mornings.....not a real objectionable opinion. Randy gave it a fair review an opinion and review I will respect. does this thing work( I don't know) will I buy one (maybe,maybe not)

===>I second that.

 

>>
>>>>IMHO, the Plasma Booster would probably cost someone about $10 to build - if they are simply modifying the pulse, that part is about $5.
>>
>>Does that include the blue LED?
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>

Three to be exact... maybe $1 for the housing, $5 for the chip, maybe slightly more if there's also a DSP in there... but seriously, not all that much. Does it matter? Not really - how many people out there have the knowledge and wherewithal to build their own? Same thing goes for the majority of aftermarket parts out there... and yet we still buy them.

 

>>>>Trippy is just an antagonist. He posts just to antagonize other people, which is probably why Peter defended himself. Then he makes this thread to throw his temper tantrum. Trippy has done this before in a post on a book the"Fibronnici sequence" where "Mark" talked about what he read and the equations he found on the internet(Mark stated that this was what he found by looking it up. and that he wasn't an expert) Trippy immediatley harrased and ridiculed him. All other posts from him are just as hostile. He stated that he didn't believe Mightyminiz review of the PB, said it was too positive and that he was probably paid to say so.(Maybe a fair assumption) But when doing scientific theary you generally disregard the highest positive(mightyminiz) and the lowest negative(Trippy) so scientifically Trippy voids his own opinion. when given the graphs he says I don't believe them I want more. when given more he still says I don't believe it I want more. When given who to talk he doesn't call the person he goes to a .gov address and says I couldn't find anything. I picture him closing his eyes sticking his fingers in his ears saying I don't believe, I don't believe. The only way Trippy would give the PB a good review was if it gave him an extra 40 MPG, 30 extra horses, and cooked him breakfast in the mornings.....not a real objectionable opinion. Randy gave it a fair review an opinion and review I will respect. does this thing work( I don't know) will I buy one (maybe,maybe not)
>>
>>===>I second that.
>>

I third that!

 

>>>>
>>>>>>IMHO, the Plasma Booster would probably cost someone about $10 to build - if they are simply modifying the pulse, that part is about $5.
>>>>
>>>>Does that include the blue LED?
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Cheese


Wow, so why isn't anyone complaining about how much certain intakes out there really cost to make?

or

How about Bonnet Stripes??? That **** is CHEAP, but MINI says they're $100 (don't forget the installation charge)... AND YOU GUYS BUY IT! I did :smile:

 

>>I will buy a Plasma Booster because I've heard more good things about it than bad. :smile:


??????

 

>>I will buy a Plasma Booster because I've heard more good things about it than bad. :smile: <<

Why would you buy it? If you are are on the "Mighty Miniz Team" don't you get one for free?

 

I agree that it is important for us to keep all discussions technical and not get into personal attacks (I admit that I have let my emotions get ahead of my reasoning, and that is wrong). The whole purpose for having a discussion group is for members of the group to review, question, compare, critique, etc. products and services so that those opinions can be of assistance to others. It is totally normal human nature to be suspicious of product claims, especially when they are not backed up by reason, logic, or scientific principles. How a vendor deals with such criticism is very important and reflects upon their business as a whole.

Mark is put into an awkward position by this discussion because, even though some of us have contributed to his site, the majority of the revenue for keeping the site running comes from advertising. If a vendor feels his products are coming under attack, he may choose to advertise elsewhere, regardless of whether the attacks are valid or unfounded. Out of respect for Mark, I will do my best to keep all questioning and skepticism on purely a technical level. My apologies to Mark and anyone else I may have offended in the past.

 

>>>>
>>>>>>IMHO, the Plasma Booster would probably cost someone about $10 to build - if they are simply modifying the pulse, that part is about $5.
>>>>
>>>>Does that include the blue LED?
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Cheese
>>>>
>>
>>Three to be exact... maybe $1 for the housing, $5 for the chip, maybe slightly more if there's also a DSP in there... but seriously, not all that much. Does it matter? Not really - how many people out there have the knowledge and wherewithal to build their own? Same thing goes for the majority of aftermarket parts out there... and yet we still buy them.

I agree. Does it cost Puma $150.00 to make a pair of MINI driving shoes? Mcdonalds $. 39 to make a burger(?). or MINI $18,000 to build a MINI? Like digital watches that were $150.00 and now are $12.95.

Earl

 

>IMHO, the Plasma Booster would probably cost someone about $10 to build - if >they are simply modifying the pulse, that part is about $5.

Not to jump on any bandwagons here, but we need to remember that
even though a product may cost $150 or whatever, perhaps $15 to build
it. We need to keep in mind that manufacturers and vendors have costs
associated with it. R&D, testing, distribution, warehousing, marketing,
etc... Plus, in the end, the vendor needs to make some profit from it-
so they can pay for normal things like rent, food and such.

Whilest I tend to think many large companies have bordering
absurd markups to support their corporate inefficencies, on the flipside-
people still gotta eat!

-Matt

 

>>>>I will buy a Plasma Booster because I've heard more good things about it than bad. :smile: <<
>>
>>Why would you buy it? If you are are on the "Mighty Miniz Team" don't you get one for free?
>>


Based on this comment and several others that are not on the topic this thread is being locked until we can get Ulf on to discuss, in more technical detail, how the PB works. While this has been, at times, a heated discussion I do believe its important for members to ask hard questions of the vendors and the products they bring to market. This type of discussion will remain open in regard to all products as long as it is done in a constructive manner and is within posting guidelines. Take the opportunity to ask hard questions with an eye toward constructive criticism...the vendor will benefit from being able to improve his/her interactions with the MINI community and the members will continue to drive better engineered (and priced) products.

Again, I'll look for Ulf's response to discuss this further.

Peter - feel free to have Ulf create a new post under Performance Mods to discuss the technical side of the PB.

Thanks

Mark

 

Posted at the request of Trippy via PM: