The proverbial dead horse yet again, but I have a specific question. If I did a header, quicksilver exhaust, pulley, webb chip, intake and throttle body I'd spend about $3,000 or so. How much HP is that? About 210?? These things aren't cumulative, so you can't just add up each piece.

I'm picking up my Indi Blue MCS in about 3 weeks and will either do the above or the JCW. I'll spend 2x on the JCW (and won't have to do it all myself) and all I really get for my extra 3k is badges (don't need no stinking) and the warranty (nice). This is the typical comparison right?

But I'll throw another question at ya'll. If I sell the car in 3 or 4 years, what is the JCW going to be worth in premium? I'd guess about 2k to 3k. The aftermarket stuff will be worth zero if not have a negative impact on price. Let's face it, we are all scared of "hopped up" aftermarket cars. So I figure that makes the two about even and you give up the time value of about $3000 and you get a warranty with JCW. Right?

-early

 

I agree with you when it comes to resale price. A JCW car will be considered a special limited edition car very desirable to a collector, and a MCS with a bunch of aftermarket parts will be worth less than an un-modified MCS.

 

Will you ever want to sell your MCS?

 

Neither matters if you don't plan on selling the car.Personally, I don't think it will matter much if you really drive the car.If it's got high miles it really doesn't matter anyway concerning collector value.Collectors usually don't want high mileage cars.And these cars beg to be driven.I usually can't leave anything alone, i'm amazed my mini isn't modded like crazy already.But I just built a house and i'm pretty broke.

 

I'm not so sure the JCW will be have that much greater of a resale unless they completely stop producing the kit. Why would someone pay a premium for a JCW car, when they could buy any MCS and get the kit installed themselves. Of course 10, 20 years down the road the JCW might be considered a collectors edition, but I have no plans of ever keeping a car that long.

Instead of trying to sell your modded MCS, why not remove the parts and sell them separately. You might be able to get more than leaving it on the car.

 

Interesting statements earlyapex :smile:
I'll explain why :smile:

I paid $24.4 plus tax for my 2002 MCS = ~$26.5.
I added... about $3.5 in mods (pulley, re-maps, many exhausts...lol, rear sway bar, intake, brake pads, several sets of rims & tires, graphics...etc...etc.

So in theory.....some may say.....I have a $30k MCS

IMHO.... I feel that there is no such animal as a $30K MCS.... it's simply a $20K MCS with $10K worth of...."stuff".
It's a $20K car and has the build quality, reliability, and performance of said price range.

This point can be argued ....endlessly :smile:......."fer sure"

I luv my MCS, so I add "stuff" to it...because I enjoy modding it, driving it and owning it.
I expect ...to receive none of the money I spent in adding this "extra stuff".....if and when i decide to sell it.
nothing ...nada...zip....zero....:smile:

If I went to sell my car today... the max I could probably get for it...is ...I'd say...~$20K... This is due to various factors...which include....depreciation, modded status as you mentioned, supply & demand, mileage....etc.
The list goes on & on...and we can all add our line items here.

To me...my MCS....... is simply an investment in......... "FUN" :smile:

Just MHO :smile:

If you choose to mod..... w/ aftermarket parts or w/ the JCW kit...
it's YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE. :smile:


Peace,
D

_________________
I own a 2002 MCS w/ alot of stuff on it.

 

are you really planning to sell your mcs a few years from now? without having even driven it yet? once you start driving it, especially after you mod it whichever way, i really don't think you're gonna wanna sell it. as a daily driver, it's about as fun as it gets. add to the funness, reasonable gas mileage, reasonable price and what i think is more than adequate storage space for 1-2 people, and you get a nearly unbeatable package for daily driving pleasure.

i thought the jcw kit was supposed to be a limited thing - once gone, that's it. but there is supposed to be some dinan performance packages that are looming on the horizon, which performance-wise should match and perhaps exceed the jcw in terms of being the whole package. plus it'll less be expensive.

 

>>The proverbial dead horse yet again, but I have a specific question. If I did a header, quicksilver exhaust, pulley, webb chip, intake and throttle body I'd spend about $3,000 or so. How much HP is that? About 210?? These things aren't cumulative, so you can't just add up each piece.

Except for the pulley and ECU my MCS is exactly like your plan.
Milltek Header $900 plus installation $80
Quicksilver $799 plus installation $70
Pulley plus installation $400
Webb chip about $660 plus shipping on laptop to and back about $40
Intake of your choice and installation $250
62mm Throttlebody $459 plus installation $40
Shipping $100+ for everything
Total $3798

First I would not recommend both Header and Quicksilver (this exhaust is too restrictive for use with a pulley and header- better to choose another more flow through design like UUC, Alta, Borla race, or Milltek-new 3 piece version).

Second- This level of modification would void you warranty so it is the opposite of the advantage of the JCW kit.
Do the DINAN upgrade you get the DINAN 4 year warranty. Do JCW you get MINI warranty for 2 years. Do your own mods then you get your own self warranty or work it out with your dealer's service dept.

Third- These mods are far better in terms of performance than the JCW kit. The header, ECU, intake, throttlebody are all not in the JCW kit. The Pulley and an exhaust are. The quicksilver gives more power/loudness than the JCW kit exhaust. While the JCW kit is rated at 200 HP, I would say your proposed setup might be more like 20 to 25+ HP more.

>>I'm picking up my Indi Blue MCS in about 3 weeks and will either do the above or the JCW. I'll spend 2x on the JCW (and won't have to do it all myself) and all I really get for my extra 3k is badges (don't need no stinking) and the warranty (nice). This is the typical comparison right?

The JCW kit installed is about $6000. You get less in performance but you get more in warranty providing you do not add other things that might void your warranty. Badges are for collectors. Know the price for a DINAN badge?- it's about $250.

If you want to keep in your $3000 budget then just drop the header- it isn't really worth it based on the combinations of what your wrote- I'd guess it adds about 3 HP and lots of noise to the exhaust. You won't be able to hear your stock radio. Don't bother with anything but a Milltek header at this point if you want to be serious. But then you'd need to decide on a different exhaust to combine with it along with the pulley.

>>But I'll throw another question at ya'll. If I sell the car in 3 or 4 years, what is the JCW going to be worth in premium? I'd guess about 2k to 3k. The aftermarket stuff will be worth zero if not have a negative impact on price. Let's face it, we are all scared of "hopped up" aftermarket cars. So I figure that makes the two about even and you give up the time value of about $3000 and you get a warranty with JCW. Right?

It all boils down to supply and demand. In a limited market with less than a million people like my area there is limited demand but in a big city like LA there would be more. If the JCW kit was on a pristine MCS with low miles then you could ask for $2500-3000 premium over a similar MCS with that mileage. That's what a collector is looking for. Original tires-not driven hard. If you drive the car like it should be driven then you'd get maybe $1000 over the normal used MCS price. If it was a high mileage JCW MCS then even less.

If you got your own mods and then wanted to sell the car then you could pull out all the mods and replace with factory stuff. You'd pay the mechanic but you can .106 most of it except the throttle body unless you bought a stock one-which might be worth the trouble for the high price. Even used parts are worth some and then you can sell the used MCS for what you can. This is likely to make more money than trying to sell a highly modded MCS. The ECU and Pulley you leave as a gift. Don't tell the new owner- surprise

All MCS owners that like power and speed are faced with this choice, this dilemma. DINAN will offer much the same as the JCW and more for $3000 plus 10 hours labor with a 4 year warranty beginning in March of 04 if all goes well.
DINAN is a desirable badge with BMW tradition but it is JCW that has historic Cooper modding tradition. In this country we don't really appreciate that as much as in the UK.

I would say-enjoy your MCS. Plus there is a waiting line for the JCW kits. No limit on the total just on how many are released each year. Same as DINAN- limited numbers but no deadline.

 

With what was shown at the SEMA show it is becoming a lot easier to " just say NO " to the JCW package if you are looking for better than average performance.

 

Thank you very much for the feedback. I generally agree and don't really care about the badging. However, there's one big issue - accuracy of aftermarket HP claims. The two reviews i've found in minicooperonline.com archives (really links to mini2 discussions) show that the JCW kit outperforms all the aftermarket on the same day/dyno/test, and by 10 to 20 hp. As we all know, different wheel hp numbers in different parts of the country on different days are pretty much meaningless.

What I don't get is how everyone claims they can get 210hp out of the mini with just a pulley, exhaust and chip when the factory had to resort to headwork for only 200hp (the side by side tests help confirm the inaccuracy of tuner claims).

Actually, the AMD Mini had the same HP as the JCW with headwork and the whole kit costs as much as the JCW without a warranty.

So, does anyone have any real side/side comparison between an aftermarket mini without Headwork and a JCW on the same dyno on the same day?

Thank you very much.

-early

 

If you choose I less-restricted exhaust and even skip the throttle body, you may be able to hit 210-220 at the crank with the above mods. You could probably do the low 200 range without the header AND throttle body.

I would skip the throttle body though since at most it has been dynoed at 4-5HP. Helix just dynoed a slightly larger one and it only made a 2HP difference, I think. They recommended it only as a mod for racers trying to milk every last HP out of the MINI engine. It gives very little bang for the buck. $200-250 per HP???

How long you plan on keeping your MINI is the key. If you were to sell it in 2 or 3 years, yes you'll get some of your $ back for your JCW investment. Unfortunately since it is dealer-installed, you won't get anything for the labor charges. And the extra sales tax is wasted as well. So in 2-3 years maybe you'd get back HALF the $4500 price. Now in 5 or more years or close to 100k miles, it may not matter at all. You may be lucky to get a few hundred more for your $6k investment.

 

my take is when the new MCS with the new engine, 2007, 2008 hits the market, will make the JCW not that much of a collectors item....the new engine I'm sure will be much more performance oriented, probably turbo instead of the supercharger, 200hp plus....a high mileage JCW vs the new engine technology of the new MCS, plus the new MCS will not be added on mods at the dealer, but a delivered performance MINI...not much of a choice for me..doubt you'll see much collector value in the then old tech works, sure many will look at the JCW then as a bandaid solution back in the old days of 2003 compared to the new MCS, the JCW in 2008 might even exist delivered with the new engine 250hp plus, works seats, works suspension for $5K more, like the M3 marketing, afterall they don't have to modify a 3 series at the dealer to make it a M3, by 2008 BMW will have the MINI marketing figured out for all the market segments :smile:

 

Hey I'd love something like that in a MINI from the factory, I just don't have a whole lot of faith that it'll happen. Usually the first few years from a new engine will give modest power increases at best. Maybe there would be some kind of very expensive MINI upgrade over the 200HP range after a few years. But I doubt the first few MINIs (years I mean) with the new engine gives us much more than we have now. I think we/'ll be lucky to get 175-180HP. Just my opinion.

 

>>I agree with you when it comes to resale price. A JCW car will be considered a special limited edition car very desirable to a collector, and a MCS with a bunch of aftermarket parts will be worth less than an un-modified MCS.
>>
it's always this way, with any kar
dealer mods ok and hot rods are frowned at

 

I hate talking about this subject!!!

Those with the JCW kit will have something of value later on, no question.
Much later, if you have a wrecked hulk of a MCS with the JCW kit, someone
will probably pay an exorbinate amount of money for it just to get the components.
They do this now with other collector cars, it is not an uncommon occurance.

As mentioned, a low mileage, clean car will be worth more than a lessor one, but not by 2 to 3k. A stock 69' Z28 sold for about $4,000, the option was probably, say
$500. A nice clean original 69' Z28 today goes for $2,000 plus another $500 for the
Z28 option? NOT!!!

A 67' 427, 435 HP Vette' is worth less than a newer 99' Z06 Vette, because the newer Vette is faster and better handling? NOT!!!

The JCW kit includes a new supercharger with the smaller puley and a different coating on the rotors. While checking out the difference between the two, I found that by taking a feeler guage, the clearance between the rotors on the JCW was less. That means that the JCW will provide a higher boost than the original. I guess thats what they were after. The new head has highly polished exhaust ports, and you can physically see a difference in the port configurations. I guess they did that to increase the efficiency over the stock head, and I also understand they did that to reduce heat spots that the revised supercharger was creating.

Its hard for me to understand that just changing the pulley on a stock MCS, adding a less restrictive exhaust , is going to match the JCW kit. Someone elses ECU program can make a difference. But I wonder if they change the ratio of how fast the throttle opens to give the illusion of more power. The American auto makers were known to do this with carberator linkage back when. Step on the gas a quarter of the way down, and you actually had it 75% open.

The dyno readings of comparable MCS's usually give the nod to the JCW, which it should.

Sorry for rambling on... I'm not trying to sell JCW Kits, just see it this way. Nothing wrong at all with the aftermarket parts available, thats what makes this whole thing so much fun. I just don't agree with some of the comparisons and bashing thats done on this site.

On mine, besides the JCW Kit, I also have the Mini-Maddness intake and the Milltek exhaust header. I installed the header a week after the Kit installation, and it made a noticeable diference above 3,500 RPM's. I kept the original header, exhaust, and intake box & filter. The plans for my MINI are admittedly long term.

 

FURIOSO wrote:Would you happen to have those measurements handy?

 

No I don't. You're not allowed in the service area. I was let in to retrieve the original exhaust system. While there I struck up a conversation with the mechanic doing the install. He let me look at the head and supercharger. He stepped away for a moment, I saw a feeler guage set on his tool box, pulled out so many thousanths and quickly played with inserting them in the original supercharger. When I placed that amount in the new one, the stack won't fit. It was st this time I was asked to leave.

 

I think your comparison of the SC gap on the JCW compared to the existing unit removed is faulty. First off you can't compare a brand new SC that hasen't been run to one that has had normal breakin and wear. The SC will get hot, things will expand and things will wear to the proper tolerence when hot. You apparently didn't have enought time to actually check the difference only that you could't get the same amount of gauge into the new SC. The differenece could have been significgant or insignifigant.

 

I'm giving serious thought to doing the Dinan stage 1 mod to my pulleyed MCS. I think that it represents a good value for $ and if their BMW mods are anything in way of a prediction how the MCS mods will be, this should be fast and reliable. Anyone else considering a Dinan kit for their already modded MCS?

 

Super_MINI, I disagree. The rotors don't touch. Any wear that you suggest happens, is digested by the engine. That doesn't happen. The SC that came off had 3,500 miles on it. The only reason why I did it was because I had heard that the coating put on the JC SC was to enable them to run at a closer tolerance. The original SC showed absolutely no signs of wear or a wear pattern along the rotors.

 

>>I'm giving serious thought to doing the Dinan stage 1 mod to my pulleyed MCS. I think that it represents a good value for $ and if their BMW mods are anything in way of a prediction how the MCS mods will be, this should be fast and reliable. Anyone else considering a Dinan kit for their already modded MCS?

I think DINAN is a good option but you do have to wait until March 2004. Stage 1 for a pulleyed MCS is a thought however I'd ask DINAN about what they think about doing any Stage upgrade on a MCS that already has been modded by a pulley (15 or 17%) in terms of whether they have any reservations about honoring the 4 year DINAN warranty after you've done a pulley mod?

I assume that given DINAN will give a 4 year warranty on their work and products, they would not want anything but a relatively stock MCS to do an upgrade on. Same thing if I brought my heavily modded MCS to the dealer and wanted the JCW kit installed, would I still get the longer warranty even though I had already done lots of upgrades to the engine? I don't know, ask DINAN. Certainly some things don't matter- anything bolt on and off is probably OK but a pulley is in a different class.

Also if you get DINAN upgrade and then add a larger intercooler does it void the DINAN warranty for 4 years? You'd have to read the fine print about what would void their warranty.

I do think that JCW and DINAN both will have some resale value even with newer MINIs with more powerful engines in the future. Why? Because those MINIs will look different and handle different. Imagine if you are a collector and want the original 2002 MINI with JCW kit and low miles. It doesn't really matter how well it performs but that it is the real stuff. Also I think that the original MINIs will be a different appearance than the new MINIs and that the "classic" new MINI look is a keeper. I base this on a preview of a upcoming MINI and I did not like the look so much that I would never consider buying a MINI that looked like that unless I removed all of the body panels that I found ugly.

 

>>>>I think that the original MINIs will be a different appearance than the new MINIs and that the "classic" new MINI look is a keeper.<<
I agree Minihune...and we can ALL pray that Bungle doesn't screw up the Mini with his indecipherable flame-surfacing like he has everything else BMW builds. I have bought/rushed to drive everything BMW has made until recently. New cars leave me cold.
BTW, you guys need to look at the kluge job Dinan did on some Z8's...ruined a couple by hammering the tub to make room for headers. I bought some of their stuff a very long time ago, and I haven't been back. Dinan damaged Z8 thread...
Just my .02

_________________
Diggy
JCW, M-cars, and eyetalian stuff

 

BTW, you guys need to look at the kluge job Dinan did on some Z8's...ruined a couple by hammering the tub to make room for headers. I bought some of their stuff a very long time ago, and I haven't been back. Dinan damaged Z8 thread...
Just my .02 >>

Some pretty seriously wacked up stuff here! I gather you're not completely sold on Dinan work, eh, Diggy? I would VERY much like to read a head-to-head between the stage 2 Dinan kit and the JCW kit. I've got an '04 MCS on order, coming in 8-10 months. I'm planning on gettting a JCW upgrade installed when it comes, unless I opt for the Dinan, which will be an option by then. Since there is no new head or supercharger in the Dinan kits, they must count pretty heavily on ECU mapping and throttle body. I look forward to a serious review of this upgrade. If the Dinan warranty is longer than that of the JCW and the performance figures are the same (bhp and torque), then the decision might be a pretty easy one.