Thanks for posting the Rotrex along with the turbo car. This is what really shows the difference in drivability. The turbo goes from 140ftlbs to max tq of a huge 274ftlbs in just 1300 rpm's and then it's over. My little Rotex on the other hand pulls from 140ftlp to a max of 223 in 3000 RPM's. It also follows the HP curve which is what make it even better. Those two working together over a larger RPM band makes for a much more usable power band then the light switch of a power band the turbo produces. While the turbo produces great peak numbers the usable power band just isn't the best for a front drive car.

The other big advantage of the Rotrex is heat. During my hammering in the canyons today my highest water temp was 185 and my highest intake temps were 91. The temp outside was 85. This means the power you start with will never leave do to heat soak like a turbo or an M45 car.

For rear or AWD I agree that a well made turbo is best in a small 4 cylinder car. For the front drive Mini I will take a bigger power band over the hyper power band of a turbo any day.

As for my set up it was a one off that "I" pushed Jan into building. That said if Jan decided to produce a Rotrex kit I would think all in it would run about 8K without installation.

Longboard

 

Amazing car and amazing number's DR FUH. I cannot begin to imagine how much time that project has taken to get to where it is now.

Ahahaha... This debate reminds me of two people arguing about how to receive the winnings after they found out they won the 100m Powerball lottery. "Hmm... Should I take the huge lump sum immediately and get taxed ~50%, or take it in slower 1 million increments for the rest of your life?" In either case, you're both lucky ba$tards.

I also find it somewhat funny and ironic hearing these so called "drivability" issues with having 300+ whp on a fwd car. Are some of you forgetting that 300+ whp in for a fwd 1.6 4 cylinder is still relatively low compared to lots of the other modded 4 bangers?

In Columbus alone there are probably 50 turbo Civics pushing over 300 to the wheels, countless SRT-4's, several Eclipses, and many VW's just to name a few. IMO the Mini's stock chassis and drivetrain is more suited to handle 300 whp than a lot of those cars I just mentioned. Also, I understand its a different game in rwd, but if you look almost any single turbo Supra's dyno, it has a 500ish hp torque gain in about 1000 rpms. With that said, our numbers are just child's play.

 

please correct me if i'm wrong, but from my understanding of your analysis, it appears you have never driven a high output turbocharged fwd MINI before.

assuming both vehicles are rolling along on the highway at 3500rpms in 4th gear, the hp/tq are approx equal. (your dyno pull starts at 3500)

when you said, "The turbo goes from 140ftlbs to max tq of a huge 274ftlbs in just 1300 rpm's and then it's over. ", you are correct - it's over for your little rotrex. as it's trying to make the other 83 lb ft of torque in 1200 rpms, the turbo will continue to pull away from you.

at 5000 rpms, the turbo is making approx. 250hp/265tq compared to your 195hp/205tq and you are staring at a set of tail lights.

at 6000 rpms, the turbo is making 285hp/245tq compared to your 255hp/223tq.

at 7000 rpms, the turbo is making 310hp/230tq compared to your 285hp/215tq and you can barely read the rear license plate by now.

at 7500 rpms, the turbo is making 315hp/220tq (which btw is approx your max tq) compared to your 300hp/205tq and the turbo looks back and starts to slow down so you can catch up.

and guess what, if conditions are ideal, the next time around it will be even worse. that was on the medium boost setting, imagine how ugly it will look on high boost. unfortunately, the boost on the rotrex is not cockpit adjustable.

you control the driveability of a turbo with a boost controller and your right foot. im not sure what you mean by bigger or useable power band? the entire power band of the turbo is much bigger.....

heat soak occurs when the intercooler can not dissipate the heat fast enough or following hot shutdown. our systems are properly sized and like yours, performance is optimal.

i applaud what you and RMW have accomplished. your goal was to maintain the character of the MINI and achieved that with the rotrex. performance is relative to the end user and im sure you feel the rotrex is fast, i just prefer stupid fast.

i am first to admit that i have driven rotrex powered vehicles but never a rotrex MINI. looking at and understanding sets of data are only part of the equation. there is no substitute for real world driveability and i would be more than happy to meet with you so that we can trade vehicles and broaden both our experiences.

 

Great post, Hubie.
Thanks for the turbo/rotrex comparison...your "play by play" of what the rotrex would see is too funny.

This is great...
"im sure you feel the rotrex is fast, i just prefer stupid fast."

 

Great way to describe the Spanking!
I just saw that whole race in my mind

 

Dito...that car scene that just played in my head was Sweet! Hope to be driving a stupid fast Mini some day...

 

Hardcore racers use Turbo over rotrex or s/c right? Why? because winning is everything.

 

I have a s/c so ill loose the race, but! I love the whine it makes, so thats ok! its a DD.

 

Wow Hubie I think you took my post the wrong way. I wasn't saying my car was faster in the 1/4 or anywhere for that matter.

I was comparing the usable power for all around driving day to day. Not drag racing kids from light to light .

When that turbo hits controlling wheel spin will absolutely become something you have to deal with. Putting the power down while driving fast say coming out of corners becomes a real problem which makes the car harder to drive.

I've seen the vid of Bob at the track and it's very clear that driving that car smoothly and producing consistent lap times is a hell of a lot of work. You can hear Bob pedaling the accelerator trying to get the power down coming out of corners without lighting the tires up. I'm not saying the car isn't fast it just seems like a handfull to drive.

I know you like stupid fast and the cars you've built prove that. I wasn't comparing anything other then reel drivability. I would love drive a turbo car. Let me know when.

I think the drag mentality might be taking over Fu

Longboard

 

Ah ok .

Longboard

 

Haha ditto.

Love the speculation about turbo fwd cars not being suitable for a daily driver...

 

Thanks for doing that, I was going to interpret the graphs properly but then I just figured somebody else would do it, and here it is. The only way the TC car posted here can be considered "done" after it hits its peak is relative to itself. At 7500 it is going to feel like it has less power then at 4500, but it is still handing any of the current SC solutions their *** in terms of raw numbers. You have to stop and look and realize it isnt just "the area under the curve" it is also where the curve is in terms of both output and RPM. If you keep the TC car above 4500 it will be more powerful, and it will be "drivable" in the way you are applying the term. And if you wanted to you could monkey with the size of the blades in the TC and get more power down low if you really wanted it.

 

You have it all wrong man. You say DD but then you talk about putting power to the ground. Daily driving you're not supposed to be stomping on the pedal anyways. Wanna put the power to the ground? Buy better/wider tires and learn how to control your right foot. And as for corners, ease on the pedal till you can use the traction for going straight instead of turning. Same would apply to your Rotrex car cause you're at the upper half of the full RPM range anyways...

Oh, and, daily driving I usually shift before 4k unless I'm on an onramp or driving 'spirited' which means I wouldn't exactly be dealing with all the extra power anyways would I? It wouldn't be any different than driving my car now...

 

It's obvious that reality is hard to accept....

 

I still think the best way to determine the drivability of a car is to actually drive it...

 

I would drive it and giggle because of feeling all the power.

 

You shift below 4K most of the time . I'm sorry.

Longboard

 

sorry, but i believe it is you who doesn't understand...we ARE discussing useable power and driveability.....

since i can see you assume i am a drag racer and have the "drag mentality".... it's best that we continue our friendly discussion in person. this will allow you to experience driving a turbo MINI and get to know me better - who i am, what i do, etc. etc.
hopefully you will reciprocate by allowing me to drive your rotrex as well.

i'm sure both of us will have a much better understanding afterwards.

pm sent.

 

 

Wow the turbo is like having a free nitrous kit installed after 4k .

I wonder what the result would be if the Newman cam was fitted in the turbo car as well?

 

How about you send one my way and i'll let you know how it works..

 

Daily driving, yes. That does NOT apply to driving 'spirited'. I think you should take up Hubie's offer, don't be afraid to learn something new.

 

Detroit Tuned!! The Official ABF affiliate!

 

I had heard through the vine you were up there. I hope everything is going good with you.

 

Life has it's way. It is going quite well thanks!