Drivetrain Intercooler Cooling Tests
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 702
Likes: 2
From: Utah
Check out the numbers in seconds under the 330, 660, 1000 and 1320 foot columns, the last being 1/4 mile. See how consistent they are? That's a quality driver 
Now look at the top half vs. the bottom half. The times on the bottom half are lower than those on the upper half, with the bottom showing a .2 second increase in average time to 1320'...see the numbers in blue. Note also the speeds in MPH. The bottom half shows a 2.5 mph increase . Clearly the GRS shows significant gains for whp...something nearly impossible to measure accurately on the dyno.
Now look at the top half vs. the bottom half. The times on the bottom half are lower than those on the upper half, with the bottom showing a .2 second increase in average time to 1320'...see the numbers in blue. Note also the speeds in MPH. The bottom half shows a 2.5 mph increase . Clearly the GRS shows significant gains for whp...something nearly impossible to measure accurately on the dyno.Very cool! Thanks for decoding this for me
I don't get to the track so I didn't get what I was looking at. So I am assuming this was compared to the stock IC?Pretty impressive gains from the GRS from this info and what my findings were
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
Of the 4 IC's I tested the Forge did best on a Superflow 120.
Last edited by stevecars60; Aug 17, 2008 at 02:32 PM.
Silly ?, but did you use both heat shields with the DFIC exclusively? Maybe just the exhaust shield aerogel alone would help out all the intercoolers? Just a thought-
Last edited by ClintTheMiniOwner; Aug 17, 2008 at 04:43 PM.
Do you have any more recent photos?
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 702
Likes: 2
From: Utah
I'm not sure that it would have helped the intercooler performance much. Maybe as far as how fast the engine bay heat soaks, but the tests we performed I don't think it would have helped the intercoolers much.
Last edited by Intense; Aug 17, 2008 at 05:07 PM. Reason: forgot a word...
ya...the alta sprays from the corner. Since the GP axtially seals quite well and the extra rows are at the far side, I figured this was a good solution. One hole in the cover and minor clearancing on the core itself. I retasked the rear wiper bottle for it.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 702
Likes: 2
From: Utah
This is weird? A mistake post perhaps?
Intense, since your going to keep your M7 unit, are you ever going to consider the extractor scoop? I would be curious to see some test results with it. I couldn't imagine a more flow through design. I am just not ready to cut a hole in my hood, although good test results may entice me.
Last edited by ClintTheMiniOwner; Aug 17, 2008 at 07:27 PM.
nice work on testing. it confirms conventional wisdom that the oem intercooler is pretty good. does anyone out there have a Pace system? http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/public...uctID=car/mini it is expensive, but if looking for the ultimate, cost-no-issue intercooler, this is an interesting alternative. sort of a hybrid a2a/w2a system.
Last edited by bean; Aug 18, 2008 at 09:01 AM.
Here are the other ones I've got. The only real difference is that instead of the spot welds, its all welded up. I'll share these and get some new ones over the weekend.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 702
Likes: 2
From: Utah
Intense, since your going to keep your M7 unit, are you ever going to consider the extractor scoop? I would be curious to see some test results with it. I couldn't imagine a more flow through design. I am just not ready to cut a hole in my hood, although good test results may entice me.
I've thought about adding the extractor scoop. The more I think about it, I can't wrap my head around anything about it thats going to be more beneficial, as far as intercooler efficiency or cooling anyway.
I too would be curious to see some results with it. I'm not willing to cut my hood and do the installation just to find out tho. I think that the air coming through the DFIC has plenty of places to exit as is. Having it vent into the engine bay might actually help to reduce under bonnet temps. ..I dunno
I think the one thing that I can do to improve my DFIC's effectiveness is to add a water sprayer. I think that will be my next project with the DFIC. On the dyno I saw a gain of 10hp just from spraying it.
No Fear Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
From: Golden Central Coast Cali
BINGO! You must be as old as I am, at least.
Last edited by pberry51mini; Aug 18, 2008 at 05:35 PM. Reason: more
) It seemed all I had left when it did get some water on the IC was a hot wet IC
I can run through a full tank during one session of auto-x. I keep the hood open while staging and then shoot it with the sprayer right before running and again at the end while coming back around to staging. By the time I do my next run (just a few minutes), it's back to ambient (based on the super accurate hand on core test).
Manufacturer
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 995
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
First off GREAT POST!
It is so cool that a normal (ok maybe not totally normal) guy went through all this trouble to answer questions people have been asking us (vendors) for a long time. We (ALTA) have answered the questions with hard data and shown our own testing, Dr O's Testing, and computed data using CFD modeling and what not.
So first off, please please don't take this as criticism, or take this as we think you did the testing wrong, or poorly. Both words describe the complete opposite of which you did.
1. Was there one or 2 cars being used to test them? It looks like 2 and if so, did both cars get all the intercoolers?
2. The max pressure being logged, is this using the scan gauge and if so is this hard data on a PC or just something you saw on a gauge. If so was the RPM (and potentially car) the same? Or was it just close. I say this because of increasing boost curve on the Mini, the highest number could have a varience to it base on the exact RPM it was measured at.
3. Was all the temp data peaks? If so were they all at the same RPM?
4. Were the peak numbers used in conjunction with the same temps and the same point? Meaning if you measure 300F at that same RPM and time was the temp you show 85f? Or was that just the highest outlet number?
5. Are you able to pick 6500 RPM and produce the temps here? This would eliminate the peak numbers from varying because of RPM.
When designing intercoolers its not all about temp drops. In fact when we came up with the side draft/flow through/V2 intercooler, we knew that the outlet temps were not going to be as good but it would be much less restrictive. How much worse the temps would be and would this still make HP is the question.
In a given space you can only make an intercooler so big and do so much. With that said we can take the same design and make it cool really well and be restrictive, or make it not cool so well, but be very free flowing. I think all the above intercoolers are examples of that.
With all this great temp data, it proves that there are a couple that do work better than others. So in a place where its hot out, you know which one you might pick. When it comes down to HP and making the car faster this data provides just one piece of the puzzle. For instance had we given an Classic ALTA intercooler we would have come out on top as far as temp numbers. But there is more to it than that.
One thing that is missing (as you stated) is pressure numbers. The pressure a huge part of these cores and how they work. While the data shows some making more peak (not sure what RPM but that is important) that doesn't always matter. We have found that our super restrictive older Classic core cools very very well. On that note regarding pressure drop, if the M7 and ALTA intercooler's peak pressures were at the same RPM, for 100% our core should have made higher numbers. This is based off of a lot of things but 3 important things to note. The fin count, fin type and cross section of the charge air. Using some data from the cores i have seen, the M7 core should be slightly more restrictive and maybe cool a little better than ours.
Regarding the scoop not showing all the intercooler. This is a very important step to making the intercooler function. When we sell our IC we suggest customers buy the M7 scoop instead of modifying the OEM one. The M7 scoop still needs to be modified, but it has a better/bigger opening and can make the intercooler work even better.
We are totally over the M7 vs. ALTA thing (the whole who copied who thing) and this doesn't have anything to do with the scoop and why we dont have one. In fact from the beginning we didn't want to make anything fiberglass(because is a pain) so we made it to work with the stock scoop. Only after we released our part and M7 then had their did we start to recommend the M7 scoop as a way to make our part better. But when we have done our other testing we have done this with a modded scoop, not an M7 one.
Back to moding the scoop. For us this might show some of the short comings of our instructions but it is there. Some have read (not completely though) our instructions that state "make sure to take time cutting the scoop so it i looks nice". We do say this but also on step 8 we do tell you to cut it by following the steel of the hood. Maybe this is something we have over looked and is something we need to better explain. But this isn't an option with our intercooler is a very necessary step in order to get air across the whole core and through it. So the pics shown where the scoop is not cut do make it look really bad, but in fact its very open when you cut the scoop back to meet the sheet metal of the hood.
We did expect both our core and the M7 core to not cool as well as the others, but i think the scoop plays a huge factor.
In the end it comes down to Horsepower. Weather is related to cooler temps, being restrictive, the ECU seeing cooler temps and adding timing, or the ECU not knocking pulling timing and a lot of factors play into Horsepower. We feel our intercooler has a great balance of temp drop vs being free flowing and will make about the most HP an intercooler can make (which we feel is about the 10WHP mark). We could have made our core shallower, and gotten about 10F cooler outlet temps but the pressure drop would go up. In fact it would go above 1.5 PSI doing this. We thought lets get it under 1psi and see what happens..........
Yes a completed version of the test could be some dyno runs(which maybe we could help with), but i think if you could log pressure drop and even ignition timing you would quickly see which IC works the best. You would see the point at which air temps being cooler doesn't effect timing, or the engine being prone to knock.
I am not saying that the testing should be redone just because of the scoop not being modified correctly, or it being the M7 ram scoop, but that is a huge factor to a flow through core like ours and M7's. Because it is a trade off of temp for pressure drop.
I hope this isn't coming across as a huge argument, as i am not trying to. Its important that we hit on all aspects of an intercooler. Its also important to educate onlookers that its not just about temp change. Hopefully everyone read this and understands. Too many times guys looking at the forums take the info as 100% the truth and start spreading the word. I think there is alot more to add to this thread, i just hope that people look at the data and can see all intercoolers and how they all do things differently! For instance we used to sell the classic to guys i a hot climate where temp drop mattered most. And then sell our V2 to places with much cooler temps.
Also important to mention is that everyone keeps saying, Save your money. I agree there are other items i would buy before an intercooler. There are items that will make a bigger difference for sure! But this isn't about other parts its about intercoolers.
Again, i am not trying to argue, just bringing up questions that should be answered. Great POST!
It is so cool that a normal (ok maybe not totally normal
) guy went through all this trouble to answer questions people have been asking us (vendors) for a long time. We (ALTA) have answered the questions with hard data and shown our own testing, Dr O's Testing, and computed data using CFD modeling and what not.So first off, please please don't take this as criticism, or take this as we think you did the testing wrong, or poorly. Both words describe the complete opposite of which you did.
1. Was there one or 2 cars being used to test them? It looks like 2 and if so, did both cars get all the intercoolers?
2. The max pressure being logged, is this using the scan gauge and if so is this hard data on a PC or just something you saw on a gauge. If so was the RPM (and potentially car) the same? Or was it just close. I say this because of increasing boost curve on the Mini, the highest number could have a varience to it base on the exact RPM it was measured at.
3. Was all the temp data peaks? If so were they all at the same RPM?
4. Were the peak numbers used in conjunction with the same temps and the same point? Meaning if you measure 300F at that same RPM and time was the temp you show 85f? Or was that just the highest outlet number?
5. Are you able to pick 6500 RPM and produce the temps here? This would eliminate the peak numbers from varying because of RPM.
When designing intercoolers its not all about temp drops. In fact when we came up with the side draft/flow through/V2 intercooler, we knew that the outlet temps were not going to be as good but it would be much less restrictive. How much worse the temps would be and would this still make HP is the question.
In a given space you can only make an intercooler so big and do so much. With that said we can take the same design and make it cool really well and be restrictive, or make it not cool so well, but be very free flowing. I think all the above intercoolers are examples of that.
With all this great temp data, it proves that there are a couple that do work better than others. So in a place where its hot out, you know which one you might pick. When it comes down to HP and making the car faster this data provides just one piece of the puzzle. For instance had we given an Classic ALTA intercooler we would have come out on top as far as temp numbers. But there is more to it than that.
One thing that is missing (as you stated) is pressure numbers. The pressure a huge part of these cores and how they work. While the data shows some making more peak (not sure what RPM but that is important) that doesn't always matter. We have found that our super restrictive older Classic core cools very very well. On that note regarding pressure drop, if the M7 and ALTA intercooler's peak pressures were at the same RPM, for 100% our core should have made higher numbers. This is based off of a lot of things but 3 important things to note. The fin count, fin type and cross section of the charge air. Using some data from the cores i have seen, the M7 core should be slightly more restrictive and maybe cool a little better than ours.
Regarding the scoop not showing all the intercooler. This is a very important step to making the intercooler function. When we sell our IC we suggest customers buy the M7 scoop instead of modifying the OEM one. The M7 scoop still needs to be modified, but it has a better/bigger opening and can make the intercooler work even better.
We are totally over the M7 vs. ALTA thing (the whole who copied who thing) and this doesn't have anything to do with the scoop and why we dont have one. In fact from the beginning we didn't want to make anything fiberglass(because is a pain) so we made it to work with the stock scoop. Only after we released our part and M7 then had their did we start to recommend the M7 scoop as a way to make our part better. But when we have done our other testing we have done this with a modded scoop, not an M7 one.
Back to moding the scoop. For us this might show some of the short comings of our instructions but it is there. Some have read (not completely though) our instructions that state "make sure to take time cutting the scoop so it i looks nice". We do say this but also on step 8 we do tell you to cut it by following the steel of the hood. Maybe this is something we have over looked and is something we need to better explain. But this isn't an option with our intercooler is a very necessary step in order to get air across the whole core and through it. So the pics shown where the scoop is not cut do make it look really bad, but in fact its very open when you cut the scoop back to meet the sheet metal of the hood.
We did expect both our core and the M7 core to not cool as well as the others, but i think the scoop plays a huge factor.
In the end it comes down to Horsepower. Weather is related to cooler temps, being restrictive, the ECU seeing cooler temps and adding timing, or the ECU not knocking pulling timing and a lot of factors play into Horsepower. We feel our intercooler has a great balance of temp drop vs being free flowing and will make about the most HP an intercooler can make (which we feel is about the 10WHP mark). We could have made our core shallower, and gotten about 10F cooler outlet temps but the pressure drop would go up. In fact it would go above 1.5 PSI doing this. We thought lets get it under 1psi and see what happens..........
Yes a completed version of the test could be some dyno runs(which maybe we could help with), but i think if you could log pressure drop and even ignition timing you would quickly see which IC works the best. You would see the point at which air temps being cooler doesn't effect timing, or the engine being prone to knock.
I am not saying that the testing should be redone just because of the scoop not being modified correctly, or it being the M7 ram scoop, but that is a huge factor to a flow through core like ours and M7's. Because it is a trade off of temp for pressure drop.
I hope this isn't coming across as a huge argument, as i am not trying to. Its important that we hit on all aspects of an intercooler. Its also important to educate onlookers that its not just about temp change. Hopefully everyone read this and understands. Too many times guys looking at the forums take the info as 100% the truth and start spreading the word. I think there is alot more to add to this thread, i just hope that people look at the data and can see all intercoolers and how they all do things differently! For instance we used to sell the classic to guys i a hot climate where temp drop mattered most. And then sell our V2 to places with much cooler temps.
Also important to mention is that everyone keeps saying, Save your money. I agree there are other items i would buy before an intercooler. There are items that will make a bigger difference for sure! But this isn't about other parts its about intercoolers.
Again, i am not trying to argue, just bringing up questions that should be answered. Great POST!
Manufacturer
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 995
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
Guys we also put some of this data on our site a while ago. There is alot of other info here you can read along with the info on our page.
In a world where people lie about things to make them selves look better, this just isn't the case here.
CLICK HERE FOR INFO WE POSTED UP A WHILE AGO
CLICK HERE FOR DATA ON OUR SITE
In a world where people lie about things to make them selves look better, this just isn't the case here.
CLICK HERE FOR INFO WE POSTED UP A WHILE AGO
CLICK HERE FOR DATA ON OUR SITE
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 702
Likes: 2
From: Utah
Jeff,
First off, thanks for posting in this thread. I think its important for the vendors involved in these tests to be "involved".
Believe me when I say that I know there is a lot more to intercooler testing than just air temps. I think that everyone involved in this thread and the last M7vsAlta thread were aware of this. I have always tried to make it as clear as possible to people that this was NOT the end all beat all testing of intercoolers. There are many variables that I simply don't have the tools or knowledge to measure.
M7 graciously sent me some logging equipment and I and the community thank them for that. I actually bought a ScanguageII just for these tests. (Well, I'm glad I did anyway! Its a pretty cool toy
)
Thats been a lot of the fun for me, figuring out what's involved and what it takes. I have a feeling that this won't be the last information like this that I gather because in all honesty, it was fun! Hard work, but a lot of fun I'm trying to find some used or cheap logging equipment right now, feel free to let me know if you have any laying about unused 
Now for answering your questions
1. Was there one or 2 cars being used to test them? It looks like 2 and if so, did both cars get all the intercoolers?
We used only one car in the testing, mine. The other car in the picture is my friends. He owns the GRS we tested, we took it off his car to use on mine when that picture was taken,
2. The max pressure being logged, is this using the scan gauge and if so is this hard data on a PC or just something you saw on a gauge. If so was the RPM (and potentially car) the same? Or was it just close. I say this because of increasing boost curve on the Mini, the highest number could have a varience to it base on the exact RPM it was measured at.
The only measuring tool we had to measure boost was the scanguageII. It was not hard logged onto a PC. We used a voice recorder and ran the car to to 6800RPM thru 3rd and 4rth gears for 3-4 runs. We did the same thing thru 1-4gears after heat soaking for 8 min. When doing this, the numbers were actually read off every time the scanguage updated for the full run. I would call out when we hit 6800RPM and Roggenmini would note the reading. One thing we did notice was the scanguage seemed pretty accurate at the 6800RPM reading
3. Was all the temp data peaks? If so were they all at the same RPM?
Yes, all peaks at 6800 RPM
4. Were the peak numbers used in conjunction with the same temps and the same point? Meaning if you measure 300F at that same RPM and time was the temp you show 85f? Or was that just the highest outlet number?
On my graphs using Excel I tried to line up the peak temps and low temps with the time. There was so much data recorded (once every 1/10 of a second).I tried to line them up but it would be more accurate to say that just peaks were listed.
5. Are you able to pick 6500 RPM and produce the temps here? This would eliminate the peak numbers from varying because of RPM.
We used 6800RPM as our limit for the runs and pressure readings
I have to tell you that I talked to one of your reps last year about purchasing one of your flow thru IC's. I remember asking if I needed to make any modifications to make it work properly. I was told no. At no time was I ever informed that I would have to trim the hoodscoop nor was I directed to buy a M7 Ram scoop to increase efficiency.
I just want you to know that.
That being said, I now feel like your intercooler was misrepresented in my testing. We obviously did not have enough airflow over the core of the Alta.
I don't feel like it was due to my misinformation or lack of trying. I feel like this "necessary modification" isn't explained well enough by your company or by people that sell your intercooler in our marketplace. I feel like I asked ample questions when looking into buying one of these from you and was told nothing of modifying the hood scoop.
If I am able to get the equipment and the means to do this again I would. I know I know.... I'm sick and need help. But It was more fun than work.
A little off topic here
This gave me a taste of what's going on with air to airs. I am really curious to know what's going on with the water to air intercoolers. They seem like the "big boys on the block". I'd like to find out first hand if they are or not. Call it a future project ....now to get people to donate to the cause
Anyway Jeff, thanks again for the post. Let me know if you have any other questions or need any more clarification.
First off, thanks for posting in this thread. I think its important for the vendors involved in these tests to be "involved".
Believe me when I say that I know there is a lot more to intercooler testing than just air temps. I think that everyone involved in this thread and the last M7vsAlta thread were aware of this. I have always tried to make it as clear as possible to people that this was NOT the end all beat all testing of intercoolers. There are many variables that I simply don't have the tools or knowledge to measure.
M7 graciously sent me some logging equipment and I and the community thank them for that. I actually bought a ScanguageII just for these tests. (Well, I'm glad I did anyway! Its a pretty cool toy
)Thats been a lot of the fun for me, figuring out what's involved and what it takes. I have a feeling that this won't be the last information like this that I gather because in all honesty, it was fun! Hard work, but a lot of fun
I'm trying to find some used or cheap logging equipment right now, feel free to let me know if you have any laying about unused Now for answering your questions
1. Was there one or 2 cars being used to test them? It looks like 2 and if so, did both cars get all the intercoolers?
We used only one car in the testing, mine. The other car in the picture is my friends. He owns the GRS we tested, we took it off his car to use on mine when that picture was taken,
2. The max pressure being logged, is this using the scan gauge and if so is this hard data on a PC or just something you saw on a gauge. If so was the RPM (and potentially car) the same? Or was it just close. I say this because of increasing boost curve on the Mini, the highest number could have a varience to it base on the exact RPM it was measured at.
The only measuring tool we had to measure boost was the scanguageII. It was not hard logged onto a PC. We used a voice recorder and ran the car to to 6800RPM thru 3rd and 4rth gears for 3-4 runs. We did the same thing thru 1-4gears after heat soaking for 8 min. When doing this, the numbers were actually read off every time the scanguage updated for the full run. I would call out when we hit 6800RPM and Roggenmini would note the reading. One thing we did notice was the scanguage seemed pretty accurate at the 6800RPM reading
3. Was all the temp data peaks? If so were they all at the same RPM?
Yes, all peaks at 6800 RPM
4. Were the peak numbers used in conjunction with the same temps and the same point? Meaning if you measure 300F at that same RPM and time was the temp you show 85f? Or was that just the highest outlet number?
On my graphs using Excel I tried to line up the peak temps and low temps with the time. There was so much data recorded (once every 1/10 of a second).I tried to line them up but it would be more accurate to say that just peaks were listed.
5. Are you able to pick 6500 RPM and produce the temps here? This would eliminate the peak numbers from varying because of RPM.
We used 6800RPM as our limit for the runs and pressure readings
I have to tell you that I talked to one of your reps last year about purchasing one of your flow thru IC's. I remember asking if I needed to make any modifications to make it work properly. I was told no. At no time was I ever informed that I would have to trim the hoodscoop nor was I directed to buy a M7 Ram scoop to increase efficiency.
I just want you to know that.
That being said, I now feel like your intercooler was misrepresented in my testing. We obviously did not have enough airflow over the core of the Alta.
I don't feel like it was due to my misinformation or lack of trying. I feel like this "necessary modification" isn't explained well enough by your company or by people that sell your intercooler in our marketplace. I feel like I asked ample questions when looking into buying one of these from you and was told nothing of modifying the hood scoop.
If I am able to get the equipment and the means to do this again I would. I know I know.... I'm sick and need help. But It was more fun than work.
A little off topic here
This gave me a taste of what's going on with air to airs. I am really curious to know what's going on with the water to air intercoolers. They seem like the "big boys on the block". I'd like to find out first hand if they are or not. Call it a future project
....now to get people to donate to the cause Anyway Jeff, thanks again for the post. Let me know if you have any other questions or need any more clarification.