I am not quite sure if this is the right place to post this, but here goes...

I have found in all my driving, I have never been able to carve a good line through turns were people recommend a double apex. I always end up screwing up on the second apex (unless i am following someone who knows what they are doing in which case I follow their line) or I end up turning in really late and just doing a late single apex.

Anyone have any tips about helping me pick good lines, or know of a link to a good resource that might help me? I seem to have difficulty picking a line that ends up with the best exit speed, hard for me to get a good feel for it. I have been been fine with single apex and hairpins etc, but these double apex are driving me crazy

Thanks for you help...

 

UKCooper

The easiest way to handle a double apex is to Diamond the corners. To do so you will need to walk the corner and line up your enterance to the first apex with a line that takes you to the exit of the second apex. Where the two lines intersect is where you will "turn in" for the second apex. You should note some sort of mark on the track (a skidmark, a crack in the pavement, etc.) where your turn in is to take place to get you to your exit. If you can, marking the turn in with a small spot of paint (from a spray can) will make it easy to see your point of turn in to the second apex. Also, you may find it is best to stay off the first apex a bit to get to the turn in point.

If you walk the corner, you will see things that you will never see in your car. If you stand at the exit of the second apex and look back to you turn in you will also see a lot. Many pro drivers will walk a track in reverse. Walking a track is the best way to really see the track and get a feel of the camber at the apex as well as any elevation change.

You may find that the entire process of finding the correct line is a give and take process. Sometimes you give up a little here to make it up there.

Good luck

Mark

 

Can't say I have heard the term "Diamond the corners" before. I do make sure and always walk the course or at least do my first 2 laps at <15 if I can't walk it. But I have never tried walking the course backwards, but I do see how that could help me. It will be a while before I can get out to a track again (winter is lame like that) so in the mean time, i will download some google maps and see if i can photoshop up some lines... and post what I come up with on here.

I first came across this at Laguna Seca's Turn 2 (Andretti hairpin) but just followed an instructor for 2 sessions and tried to learn his line. But that was years ago I can't really remember it lol

However, when I was at Hidden Valley Raceway's Turn 1, there weren't any instructors and I had to make my own lines up. Like I said before I couldn't connect a good 'feel' with a good exit speed, they were varying horrendously from 62 to 73 (this fwd has even less hp than my non-S ). I think because I couldn't feel when the turn went 'well' I kept trying different lines and couldn't consistently get my fast line to reappear because I didn't really know which one it was till I got back to the pits and checked the video. Where as by the end the of the week my exit speeds for all the other turns had crept up and stayed consistent to within +/-3.

Thanks for your help

I will be sure and post my progress with this gremlin lol. Learning is more fun when I have new things to try.

 

To "diamond a corner" means that you get past the first apex with a gradual arch while still decreasing speed, and get past the second apex with increasing speed. The "diamond "is between the two apexes, and in this scenario the part of the corner where you have the tightest radius (and slowest speed). This is definitely more common in slower-medium speed corners.

Another scenario would be for a faster double apex, where one natural arch carries you past both apexes; you turn in, pass the first and the arch takes you back towards the outside of the track and then that same arch takes you past the second apex without any adjustment.

In either case, your initial turn-in point is what you need to get right and what you should look at to correct your difficulties...

If you (initially) turn in too early, you may miss the second apex completely or have to over-adjust in the middle of the corner to sort it out, and if you turn in too late you either end up missing the first apex, or if you do get to the first apex by turning in late then you are effectively "early" for the second apex, thereby making it difficult to get to the throttle when you want.

Also, if you feel you are turning in at the right point, change the speed your hand turns into the corner, often times drivers turn their hands in too quickly, effectively putting them into a corner too early.

 

Andretti is a tricky corner (and probably not the best example of a double apex corner) because there are actually two acknowledged lines, a single apex and a double apex. It's a small enough corner that it can be effectively treated as a single apex, especially for track days, where you're not worried about protecting the inside like you would be when racing.

A good rule of thumb is "In slow, out fast". Holds true for double apex combination corners too. There's no clear cut one-size-fits-all answer for every corner. Since I haven't driven the specific corner that you're referring to, I'll defer to folks that have. And recommend a book called Going Faster by Skip Barber.

Not sure if I helped or not.

 

i think this might be what i was doing, went a little overboard on whole "whatever you do don't early apex thing"

thanks for explaining the diamond thing


i had no idea there were two lines through that turn! it was actually my first driving school (skip barber at laguna seca) hence why i was following an instructor the whole time

thanks for the great help everyone

 

I was going to say in my post that it seems like you might be turning in too early by what you are explaining. This is easy to do in a double apex corner, as everyone is so caught up in not turning in too early everywhere else (which is good).

 

I wanted to acknowledge these as two incredibly important points, and add something that I didn't emphasize previously.

You stated that you were following and/or listening to the advice of an instructor during your track day at Laguna Seca. This may go without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway. The instructor in the car, or doing lead/follow with should always have your full and complete attention. If he or she is telling you that it's a double apex corner, and showing you the line, then by golly you'd better treat it as a double apex.

The instructor present always trumps the advice of an internet track junky.

 

lol k thx

did u mean to say too late?

thanks for all the great help guys, this thread is gold

 

Yes, sorry...too late is easy to do in double apexers.

 

Just drove Laguna last week (in a brand-new M3, with a Skippy in the passenger seat). His comment was that the fastest line through the Andretti hairpin, turn 2, was to pass the first apex about one car length out, then diamond the corner to line up on the second apex and the track-out point, to get as much speed as possible on the exit. "However," he noted, "you don't do that when someone's on your tail, or they'll take the corner away from you by going underneath and double-apexing it. They'll be slower coming out, but they'll be in your way and be leading you into three." So that's the reason why they talk about "two lines" through that corner.
Keep the shiny side up,
Arnie

 

Hmmm that is very interesting and a good thing to keep in mind , looks like i will use the first way for qualifying and if no-one is behind me. and the second way if someone is right behind me. i compete in long stint endurance racing so there isn't always someone right behind me (i still remember a 5hr 43mins shift.....ow the the pain, we don't usually go that long between swaps, but we had to that time, 6hrs is the max allowed before a required stop)

that is if that ends up being applicable to hidden valley's turn 1
dunno when the next time i will able to hit up the corkscew, that was a blast though

 

i haven't had the forturne to run LS, but i've run Moroso twice. there are four turns that can be taken as a single or double apex. don't be afraid to play w/ your line. what works best for your instructor, in his car (probably RWD) may not work best for you. if you don't have data logging, look at your videos closely. talk to the mic and you'll have a reference for what you were trying to accomplish in that particular lap. more seat time! glad to see you are getting to the track.

 

word, i try and tape as much as i can and watch it with a few people that are better than me

and who doesn't love getting to the track? i love every minute, makes me wish i could build one in my back yard lolz