Well, it seems a bit odd to me that a dragon video would be banned when the NAM store here sells a video showing the same sort of dangerous/illegal driving in Malibu Canyon. On the Malibu Canyon download, you can hear tires squealing in turns (excessive speed) and see MINI's tailgaiting as well as crossing over double yellow lines on blind corners.

Download the video here and bask in the hypocrisy!

Sign me up for this though. . . . yuccapatrol @ charter dot net


Edit: I am not the original author of this thread. Through some sort of administrative editing without my knowledge or consent, the above post which had been on the third page of an exisiting thread has become the first.

 

I agree Yucca. Is it against site rules to discuss something that blatantly violates site guidelines, but when sold it benefits the site?

Looks like the prohibitionists are selling their own hooch....

then again...who is going to pull over a speeding cop? certainly not another one.

 

Yah!

I don't want to shoot the hand that feeds my NAM addiction but come on...

 

 

I would advise people against posting their email address, since it makes it much easier for spammers to yank it from the pages (and believe me, they have the tools to do it automatically). As if we didn't get enough spam already... of course it's too late now, many of you have already posted them.

The smarter idea (IMO) would have been to PM Darkness with your email address, so only he could see it.

As for the previous video, I watched it but missed the chance to comment before the thread was locked. All I will say is:

Fantastic editing...
Awesome choice of music (I'm a HUGE NiN fan)...
Shameful driving.

There's absolutely no valid excuse for crossing the double yellow so blatantly, especially on a road such as the Dragon. I fully applaud the decision to ban it here, because condoning this driving behavior puts a bad stigma on NAM, not to mention potential lawsuits from overzealous lawyers down the road if something bad happens at the hands of a NAMmer (darn lawyers!).

Bottom line on the line crossing... if you can't drive the Dragon without crossing the line, you're driving beyond your talent and you need to slow it down. Crossing the line is cheating AND dangerous. The Dragon can still be driven in a VERY sporty manner without crossing the yellow lines ONCE. If someone gets in your way... oh well TOO BAD... be patient and hopefully they'll be polite and move over when they get a chance. You can always turn around at the end and run it again - you'll still end up with plenty of good footage. Or better still, just go on the Dragon super early in the morning when it's near-empty.

So the question may come up... do I want to see the Midnight one for myself? Sure... and I'll PM Darkness with my address, but after this post I won't be surprised if he doesn't send it to me.

 

So how much does this happen at the Dragon??

 

I never experienced passing by a car until I saw the video, but I drove the road in the 'off hours' or in the rain. A few sport bikes blew past me, but did so in the straights and after I pulled way-over, slowed down and waved them on. I almost took a Harley fat-boy to the front bumper (20-25 feet) when he lost control in a blind turn and came 3/4 of the way across my lane.

I'm sure that the edit was done to show some more of the memorable experiences in the driver's experience at MOTD, but I had a hard time watching the driving sequences. I was glad that I saw the video (very well done w/ good music and even better editing) for the cool camera angles and road shots, but it definately demonstrated careless disregard for the safety of others. I've never seen autocross up close, so that was very cool to see.

In my experience at MOTD 2006, speed may have been a tad excessive at times, but I never witnessed passing or drivers being made uncomfortable by pressure to drive outside of their comfort zone.

 

I really enjoyed the video. IMHO (& the please correct me if I am wrong video maker) I believe the video is not in real time. It is sped up a bit (not much but a bit).

You were lucky. I really enjoyed myself on Wed & Thurs but somewhere around Friday every time I got on Hwy 28 to go anywhere I felt like if I wasn't going at least 70MPH I was impeding traffic. I didn't even go near the dragon those days (except to drive midnight). The larger the crowd got the less I wanted to get out & drive. The constant excessive speed issue kinda ruined it for me in the last few days.

 

I had a few early morning runs on those days, but I spent a great deal of my drive time on those days leading or preparing for the scenic drive. My mid-day runs were during some rain-fog periods, so the road cleared out nicely and I checked my speed to compensate for the conditions.

There are LOTS of spectacular roads in the area if you want to break away from the MINIs and motorcycles.

1. Hwy 28 out of Fontana is a great road on the way to the Dragon and is even better, I think if you head SE toward Cherokee for 10 miles or so (being branded as the Hellbender, I think). I took it south, all the way down to Georgia and, along the way, drove through a very cute little shopping town... I want to try and set up a drive there next year for a good spouse drive (driving + shopping = happy couple)

2. The Cherohala Skyway during the week makes for a nice, slightly spirited drive (2pm on Thursday was a PERFECT time to be there!).

3. Foothills Parkway is a good scenic drive (but don't speed... Federal Land = $$$$ for speeding tickets and it's patrolled very regularly).

4. Little River Road that goes through the center of the Smoky Mountian park is easily the most beautiful road I've been on and I had an early morning drive on it that was at whatever speed I wished... I took it at a good, spirited pace and it was entirely too much fun!

 

Sped up or not, most of the people's complaints of the video had to do with the line crossing, not speed itself. The video was very well edited (and scored!) but I find it interesting that you've praised the video yet expressed dismay at some of the driving behavior you saw at MOTD, and is also featured in the video.

 

I expressed dismay at people pushing me to speed excessively. I don't think this video shows excessive speeding. I think the video being sped up a bit actually conveys the feel of driving the dragon perfectly

 

Almost every minivan, SUV, and other non-sports car crosses the yellow line on most turns!

But the bikes and sports cars have no excuse for crossing the yellow line.

 

You don't think that passing cars over the double yellow lines qualifies as an indication of speeding? You don't think that the cars being passed weren't already driving at or near the speed limit in the first place? We're not talking about passing slow tractor trailers here. Speeding or not... double yellow crossing should never be condoned. Certainly it's more dangerous than speeding itself, since you are greatly increasing the chance of a head-on collision by lowering the margin for error.

 

There is a major reason I did not want people to PM me their email address and that is because my PM and email would get flooded with nothing but email addresses. Already it has exploded over these videos and I don't want it filling up with nothing but email addresses. There look to be over 100 people already interested in the videos, which would fill my PM box.

ONCE AGAIN I URGE YOU NOT TO PM ME YOUR ADDRESS. If you want the video but not bad enough to post your email address when any halfway decent email account will block spam, then leave a post telling me to contact you when I'm ready to send them out. I don't recommend this because its a ton more work for me, and you lower your chances of getting the videos in a timely manner. ONCE AGAIN I URGE YOU NOT TO PM ME YOUR ADDRESS.

I already said I was ok and in total agreement with the reasoning behind banning it from the site. There is no reason to continue to bring it up.

I think thats a little silly.

I want to point out to everyone what was obvious in the video; I did pass over a double yellow, however I did not, as a another member described, spear a straight line though the dragon. I stayed in my lane the whole time and only crossed to make passes (and most of them are in this video), the rest of the time i was in my lane like everyone else, only milding touching the line in one run because I was setting up the balance for the next right hand turn because I running hard to catch another fast mini that WAS crossing the yellow line completely to get a faster line. If anything was exceeded it was the limitations of the car, not the limitations of myself. The passing on the dragon horse is dead, leave him be.

To everyone: If you post your email address you will get the video, but if you didn't like the first one you really shouldn't be asking for the second one (even though its going to be a bit tamer because of the song selection)

 

I am still trying to figure out how to post

 

Your first few posts when you join NAM are moderated... to be sure you are not someone who simply signed up to spam the forums or be a general idiot. Don't worry, after your first few posts, you will be able to see your posts as soon as you click the button.

 

My comments were not solely directed at you, the producer of the video. They were intended for all who are watching... I believe it is important to speak out against that type of driving behavior, in general. Your video merely sparked the discussion... and since the other thread was locked, this thread became the natural place to gravitate to. Sure, it's not what you intended... but you must have expected it would happen! Is it? I agree that it is unfortunate, but I don't think it's unrealistic. All it would take is one major line-crossing, head-on accident (especially at the Dragon, but not only) involving a NAM-connected MINI, and the potential is VERY real. Trust me, I don't LIKE that, but this is America, the land of the frivolous lawsuit.The thing I have to ask is... why feature it? I mean, it's bad enough that you chose to do it in the first place (instead of waiting for the person in front to pull over), but then to feature it in the video as though it's something to be proud of? THAT is what causes the negative reaction here.Exceeding the limitations of the car OR the driver is bad driving. And pointing fingers at other people's bad behavior does not justify your own... we don't have videos from them to cast our opinion on... but we do have yours. If it wasn't featured in the video, it wouldn't have been brought up.
Not as long as it continues to happen, it's not... keep in mind that your video is not the first to "feature" the line crossing... there have been many others and yours just fired up new conversation about it.

Oh come on man, you know that MINIacs can't pass up ANYTHING MINI-related, good or bad. We still want to see it.

 

I was expecting the discussion to continue, which is why i'm trying to get it to stop before it turns into a huge war that will result in another thread locking, and no videos for anyone.

I throught it was silly because that can and would happen in america.

We will never reach agreement on this.

Said that because the impression was that I was line crossing and exceeding my abilities to handle the car in my lane. I only crossed to pass, not because I couldn't handle the car. I know the limitations of the car, and I stayed right on the limit the whole time as many Mini people did. Again, we could go on and on and not reach agreement.



Then I suggest a thread about line crossing and take it away from here.

Just becuase you were wondering if you would recieve it, I wanted to make it clear that anyone who asks gets it.

I'm done with this now. The lane crossing discussion can go elsewhere. I'm going to work on the video and hope everyone will keep up with the emails.

 

--- NOTE: This thread is intended to separate the discussion & debate of the video & driving habits from the original Mini's on the Dragon Video Controversy thread, which, despite the "Controversy" title, is supposed to only contain posts with people's email addresses. Some of the discussion started there, here it continues. ---

Because I believe in protecting NAM as much as everyone else here should. And because I will compliment the video on its merits (as I did), but I will also point out what I feel are valid concerns about it.As long as the discussion is polite and not making personal attacks or insults, there would be no reason to lock it. It's happened many times before here on NAM (heated debates) without locking. The key has always been maturity. I do want to point out that your tread title specifically said Controversy, and yet you only want people to respond with email addresses? Fine... I'll start a new topic with the word DEBATE on the end. (and here it is)

Then you can understand why the defensive attitude towards the video.May I ask you then to respond to mmatarella's post from the other thread?What you are failing to address, which mmatarella pointed out, is the fact that you reduced or eliminated the safety cushion & margin for error by abusing the line markings. Your car's abilities and your own are only part of the equation when it comes to driving on a public road. The other drivers, their vehicles, and the conditions of the road itself all play an equally critical role. Let's say, for example, that you scare the person you are passing, because they did not expect you to do so on a narrow and clearly non-passing road. This person gets freaked out and runs off the road, possibly hitting something or otherwise damaging their car. Is that their fault? NO, it would be yours for acting in a unpredictable and blatantly aggressive way.

Done.I greatly appreciate your willingness to see above the debate and include all.

 

Using the word controversy was not intended that way. It was more explaining what went on for those of you tuned in late: those for the video vs. the admins. I explained the situation, gave me feelings, and then my instructions for the thread. I did not feel it was a invitaiton to continue the discussion. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

mmatarella makes a valid and well backed up argument. Yes, what passing on the dragon iswrong, yes it is illegal. That's already determined. Did I analyze each pass before hand? Yes. Did I deem it safe? Yes. Did the other driver know I was there? Yes. Did they know my intentions? Most likely. Did they know when I made my move? Yes, therefore there should have been no surprise. Did I execute the move cleanly? Yes. Any harm done? No, don't think so. We're just going to go on and on about what could have happened. I have 2 hours of video where I'm stuck behind someone becuase I did not deem a pass safe for a sitution. I made half a dozen runs up and down the dragon stuck behind someone because I did not think it was safe to pass. Yes, I would wait for them to move over, but after they pass 12 pull off points knowing I'm there I would look to make my move. If I remember correctly, there was a how to drive the dragon write up instruction those slower drivers to move over for the faster guys so that they did not force a difficult situation. Yes, thats what happened to me. I would wait for them to a extent. I've got a video of someone passing my girlfriend around a blind corner and it was rummored that he passed 4 minis at once on the dragon. That's a whole new level to what I was doing and I think they are getting mixed up, even though both types of passes are illegal.

As far as his comment about anyone in a caddy can spear a straight line down the dragon, I hope that wasn't directed to me because it was obvious in the video that I held my lane for the extent of the video until I passed.

See above. The other driver should know that I'm there because they should check their mirrors, etc, etc. In the situation that someone is on their tail, especially on a road like that, they should be expecting something to happen and be alert and ready, or just pull off and make it easy for both of us. What if they think "I'm going to hold this fast guy up because he is going to fast and its unsafe and I'm not going to let him pass to protect the other guy". Well then what happens when the fast guy does go to pass? That forced the other guy into the situation that mmatarella describes, all because somone was intentionally holding a fast person up. All a matter of what side of the fence you are one.

Thanks.

 

I don't think a debate is necessary on this topic. Peoples' opinions on this subject will always differ and most likely never change no matter how good your arguement is. The debating will just lose friendship amongst fellow Mini owners. If you don't like racing videos, don't watch them, don't complain on this website, and go on with your life.

 

IB4TL

 

LOL - you mean wishing for it? On what grounds? Give me a break.The "instruction" was a recommendation for polite courtesy. It of course was by no means a rule book that required people to pull over, not to mention that not everybody read it, ESPECIALLY the owners of other cars. And you think that gives you the right to blatantly ignore the rules after waiting "for an extent"? How about just pulling off yourself, waiting 5 minutes, then continuing? That's another option that many people have utilized, including me.

The larger point I was trying to make, Darkness... was not simply that you chose to make the passes, but that you featured them in the video. Why do that? What purpose does it serve? The only reason you included them is because you wanted to demonstrate it to all viewers... a true lawlessness display of rebellious attitude.Yes, there was a MINI-owning individual who pulled off all kinds of stupid moves like that, and he has been roundly chasticised (and warned by some with police and legal action if he shows up next year doing the same thing). However, why do you point to someone else's worse behavior as a means of justifying your own?True, there has been a mixing of debate here... some discussion targeting the moves you displayed in the video, and some "generally" targeting those who use more than the lane to take corners. They are different things, but neither would be considered appropriate driving by most people.
Driving vigilantes are everywhere... witness the people who sit in the left lane on the highway and refuse to move over to let faster cars (i.e. faster than the limit) pass. However, does give the person speeding and choosing to pass the "lane blocker" in a wild move a right to stand up and say it's justified? What if they get a ticket? Do you think the cop, or the judge, is going to have any sympathy for them?

I hate driving vigilantes as much as you do... but two wrongs don't make a right, and one form of bad behavior does not justify another.No, they didn't force anything. They just drove the road at a speed they were comfortable about. There is no written law requiring them to pull off when a faster car comes up behind. It's courteous to do so, yes. But they are not required to do so... so please quit trying to say your passes were "justified", because they simply aren't.

 

So if we don't agree just shut up? Kidding...

Racing videos are done on tracks, not the street...

I love racing videos...

I don't love street racing videos… but…

THIS was NOT a racing or street racing video though, not saying that. What was in the video while objectionable to some of us was not as dangerous as street racing, that's for sure.

Part of these ‘irreconcilable differences’ may be due to age differences between us. Younger people tend to feel a little more invulnerable. Those of us with a few more years under our belts tend to have a more 'responsible' view. And be considered fuddy duddy's or some such by those younger I'm sure. I'm only in my 40's I assure you I'm NOT a fuddy duddy!

I believe, just my opinion, that much of the problem on roads today is due to the casual disregard for red lights, yellow line crossing, aggressive lane changing and the like. I'm speaking in general terms, NOT about this one video and driver.

There are, IN GENERAL, too many drivers who through aggressive driving and casual flaunting of traffic laws needlessly endanger others. This kind of behavior also contributes to the frequent road rage we see around us. One person makes a aggressive move, and another is enraged and counters, and we all know what can happen in these situations.

There were many drivers not respecting the yellow line at the Dragon this year. My video of the parade showed several, including two who were so completely on the wrong side of the road that they were not even touching the yellow line as they were 100% in the opposite lane.

The way this is escalating I'm going to be unwilling to drive the area roads during the Dragon. We had one MINI totaled this year. I'm afraid I see a trend and it appears it's going to keep getting worse. I don’t think it’s fair for a few to ruin what’s been a good thing for all. I KNOW they will disagree and feel they’re not ruining it. We’ll differ on that opinion. But if some of us feel they are, then they are doing so for us. I have no more right to enjoy the Dragon than anyone else. (Other than the law being on ‘my’ side) I just wish it was the way it started out. Friendly, fun, spirited but safe driving.

I hate the idea that I may not be able to enjoy driving the Dragon while all the MINI's are there for fear of 10-12 reckless to extremely reckless drivers. I guess I could come for the Dragon and do a week or so and drive before and after the crowd.

Don't misunderstand, I don't Sunday drive there. I do VERY spirited drives. But the risk is getting out of hand. In my opinion...

There’s a propensity in the generation after mine for ‘action’ videos, from the slightly inappropriate or ‘reality’ videos right through the ‘MTV jackass’ show genre of people dong ‘crazy’ or ‘cool’ stunts, sometimes getting away with it, sometimes not. Perhaps that feeds part of it, I don’t know?

There was a great import and tuner show that used to run every summer as part of the Car shows at Carlisle. The behavior of a small number of the participants around and outside the show actually led to the cancellation of the show. The locals and police got fed up and refused to put up with it any longer. The behavior or a dozen or two people ended a show that tens of thousands enjoyed. I’d hate to see that happen to MOTD. It’s a pretty desolate area so that’s not as likely but…

As for a polite, respectful discussion, let's allow those who wish to do so calmly to do so, and those who don't wish to ignore it / this thread, not complain about it on the web site, and go on with their life...

Everyone have a great MINI day!

 

Ever since the first MOTD I have wanted to go, but have not been able to go. After this video controversy and the vandal/vinyl incident. I will not go to any future MOTD. I will tour US 129 on my own when there is not 600 people there because a small percent will always screw it up for everyone.

I also feel that the community is being more and more filled and dominated by younger irresponsible people (if you are young and responsible, dont post here mad that im talking about you...) I strongly suspect that both the video and the vinyl incidents were pepetrated by people under 30 and probably under 25, and both incidents showcase a general lack of respect for other people even fellow MINI motorists.....It is the shifting demographic of the MINI community and the ACTIONS of motorers that is begining to divide the community....NOT the debate of what is right and wrong itself....BTW this is true in all areas of life.