I have never been but plan on going next year. I already have a cabin at Fontana reserved. I did make the mistake of showing this video to my wife who immediately voiced her reservations on going.

I have been doing damage control for the past few days tiring to explain that this driving behavior in not the norm.

 

Why not just say "irresponsible" and leave the ages out of it?

Yeah, no age issues there.

I haven't been to the Dragon, and am not that interrested in going. I do drive the mountain raods in New England, though. Since I started doing autocrosses and HPDE / track events, my driving on the public roads has tamed significantly.

Even before, though, the lines (center and shoulder lines, when present) were sacred. Too many cyclists / runners / etc out there to be crossing lines. Crossing the center line and hitting a car would be bad, coming around a corner too fast and on the shoulder when there is a cyclist you weren't expecting would be worse.

If you cannot keep your car in your lane, slow down.

 

I still think that was a cool video...Thanks Darkness..I saw this coming from the preachers so I'm glad I downloaded it it my desktop...."HEAD LIKE A HOLE< BLACK AS YOUR SOUL"...Yeah baby....
BTW I'm 36 and irresponsible...LOL....
For the older folks that don't understand, that song is a shot at corporate America....

 

I had a long lengthy reply for edge's post but decided against posting it. Why? Because its all the same stuff that we've been over and the reply would just be a rewording of a previous post. I vote for irreconcilble differences on the subject of passing because neither of us will agree with the other, and we both refuse to back down from our position.

edit [deleted parapharse]

If you want to continue to go back and forth on the passing, fine. But do not include me in it. If this thread switches to another topic, I may participate. Good luck. Have fun.

 

Actually I think the song has even more targets than just corporate America... and trust me, I do understand. I have every single NiN Halo release, including most import versions. Of course that may not have been directed at me. You are and have always been very free to speak your mind on the matter. If you choose not to do so, hey, that's your perogative... a healthy debate is never a bad thing, provided that people remain respectful.

 

General idiot? I don't know about that, but I'd like to be an Idiot General. The problem would be training all of the idiots to salute at the same time!

 

After checking with Darkness to make sure he was OK with it, I have moved all of the posts that do not contain an email address request (except yours Yucca - Darkness said he had yours, and wanted your comments included) to this thread.

This will help keep them separate now, for those who want to read back... and it will also keep the other thread "clean".

 

I agree 100% Yucca. I was not aware that DVD was sold here on NAM, and I am quite surprised to find out that it is. Disappointing, to say the least!

 

I think the biggest concern about this and the Dragon overall is the sense that MOTD has maybe gotten a bit to big for it own good. The post by planeguy has it right IMHO. The video just shows what kind of driving is being allowed during MOTD. I would hope that for any future MOTD's that the emphasis be put on "spirited" driving vs driving at the limit.

 

Allowed by who? Watch out for the NAM/MINI community police!

There will always be people who think they can drive better than they can, and pull stupid stunts, learn to live with it, report them to the autorities and be willing to follow through, or get a badge.

All MOTDs have had the emphasis on spirited driving, not reckless driving.

 

I would like to make the case for safe passing. There are many times on the Dragon, when there is very little traffic, that you will come up behind someone who is going very much below the posted speed limit. In my experience in those types of situations, 90% of the slower drivers will pull over at the first chance, to let other traffic by. Sometimes that means driving slightly over the line, but I've never seen anyone do that on a blind turn or when it was unsafe.

The Dragon is a very special road and before each MOTD, we veterans make many posts reminding and emphasizing that folks stay in their lanes and drive safely. Again, it IS possible to pass safely. That needs to be said here.

Also, editing can make things look faster and racier than they were in actual real time. Let's allow the film makers a little leeway in their creative visions.

 

By allowed I meant by fellow drivers. :impatient

The hosting club should try and be a little more pro-active in enforcing the "spirited" idea of the Dragon. Don't go with the intent of "racing" the Dragon. Save that for a time when there aren't 500 of your fellow motorers around.

 

Since this first post was never responded to, I'd like to change directions a bit here. Andrew, you should very well have emailed or PMd me if you thought my video was reckless in any way.

Because I would have referred you to my FAQ
http://vacucam.littlemini.us/faq.asp

Which states:
I Hear Your Tires Squealing, Wasn't that Dangerous?
I have to be honest here. We weren't going that fast, and my runflats were on its last legs so getting them to squeal wasn't hard at all. But like any movie you see, I did some movie magic to enhance the squeal. The video just didn't feel as exciting watching it at normal level. I was also in constant radio contact with the group, asking them to regroup so I could get better shots. At times, I waited for everyone to catch up, and at the end, where I'm driving with Maxmini, we were on a one way road with no cross traffic, though I heard a few weeks later, some lady on her cell phone was traveling the wrong way up this canyon. So it goes to show, you can never be too sure of anything.

[edit: If you look carefully, you'll see the corners that squeal are facing the mountain where I felt more secure in powering through the turn knowing I could get the tires to squeal. Plus having a shotgun mic under the floor mat right by the wheels helped pick up the sounds. Nobody else is squealing]

Do You Have Any Advice to Share?
Yeah, be courteous, be safe, and don't race in the canyons--or on the street for that matter. There are way too many variables and it's all too easy to be involved in a fatal accident regardless of fault. There is one point in the video which shows me crossing the line around a blind curve [edit..On our way up the mountain]. That should be a shining example of what never to do, because moments later, a huge truck comes around the next corner--and had I done the same thing, I would have been history and possibly taken an innocent life with me. So please learn from my own mistakes, and drive safely at all times, you never know when your next MINI run will be your last forever.

Ok back to answering Yucca questions:
re: MINI's tailgaiting
Hmmm, as I said above the group shots were staged. I slowed the pack down to get better framing. If anyone was tail gaiting, it was for the video. And considering that the only cameras that were mounted were in my car, I find it hard to believe that you could see ANYONE tailgaiting.

re: double yellow lines
The Malibu DVD was shot on Tuna Canyon in Malibu. It's one way with no cross traffic. Any double lines you see there is for protection so you don't fall off the cliff and into the ravine. I don't see how crossing the "safety" line would be dangerous to anyone other than myself, unlike the Dragon which goes both way.

So come on, if you don't know the facts, then it's pretty reckless of you to make assumptions. There is no comparison between line crossing on a public highway and crossing the lane markings on a private one way hill.

Richard Lin
Filmmaker

 

Richard, I sure don't think Yucca was referring to YOUR hypocrisy, at all....LOL! And I hear ya on the noisy worn out runflats! They squeal on normal right-hand turns! LOLOLOL!!

 

Regardless, I made that video, I posted an FAQ about it, there was a discussion on it a long time ago in the Camera/Video forum, and now Yucca has posted false information about it and created an entire thread based on complete misinformation.

Anyways, thanks to Yucca and Edge, the Moderators and Admins of NAM have decided to pull my video from the store.

Thanks guys! I owe you.

Richard

 

Like I said at the beginning of the thread, its not worth debating this because different people have different tastes. Please stop wasting your time on making long detailed, well written posts explaining your logic. I would say the vast majority of people on NAM.com are wise people that like to have some fun within their limits. It was a pretty exciting video and nice editing. Thanks for trying to share it with us Darkness. I really enjoyed it.

And MiniClo I just want to remind you that just because you are a veteran of MOTD, doesn't mean you are a veteran of The Dragon and can give proper advice on driving the road. You live 3000 miles away; I live 15 minutes away and have been going there for the past 10 years and seen many things on that road. I respect the fact that you have great enthusiasm for the MINI, but please don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong.

 

Actually, I believe that Yucca and others provided you with video from past Dragons for your DVDs, and he was merely pointing out that NAM was selling DVDs in the NAM storefront that feature spirited driving.

And, BTW, Yucca did NOT create that new thread. Edge created it by splitting off the discussion that was ongoing in the MOTD-2006 thread into a new thread, so I think you owe Yucca an apology.

 

Another thread that I think should be locked and forgotten. NAM is really starting to become more of a nuisance than a help. One reason I hardly ever post here. I think the last Dragon brought out enough egos to show that a few people here think they rule over everyone else.

 

I have personally driven Tuna Canyon in MINIclo's car, so I am familiar with the road. I am also very familar with the entire DVD as I was probably one of the first to purchase it.

In my previous post, I stated that the Malibu Canyon teaser video displayed tailgaiting as well as crossing a double yellow line. Let me clarify my statements to ensure that I was not providing "false information".

Tailgaiting: I was not referring to the initial staged shot of a the line of MINI's as that is obviously a staged shot of a line of cars starting from a stop/near stop. However, at second 13 in the teaser video, a grey MINI comes into view which is one second or less behind your car during the spirited driving on the one-way section of Tuna Canyon. Driving that close to another car was probably necessary for the shot, but it is certainly leaves very little safety margin if your squealing runflats caused you to lose control.

Crossing a double yellow: As you said, Tuna Canyon is a one-way road and there is a single yellow line that is crossed several times during the teaser video. That shows lack of driver control, but is not crossing a double yellow line into an oncoming lane. However, at second 18 of the teaser video, you leave the one-way section and are shown driving on a 2 lane section of road. A "Do Not Enter" sign is briefly visible to oncoming traffic in the other lane at the point where the one-way section ends. After this point, the video cuts to another shot showing a forward view of the driver's front wheel on a 2 lane road. At second 20 and 23, the double yellow line on the 2 lane road is crossed by your front left tire. Although I cannot identify the exact location of these few seconds of video, it is certainly a 2 lane road where crossing the double yellow line would not be legal.

I do not believe anything I have posted is "false information" in any way, but it is possible that the tailgaiting was a result of video shot at a very slow speed and sped up for effect or that the double yellow line crossing is some sort of optical illusion or digital editing trick.

I have the teaser video saved on my computer but have no way to distribute it to anyone who does not also have it saved but wants to view or discuss this any further.

Sarcus is correct that this sort of discussion leads nowhere so I won't discuss it any further.

 

OK. I have a question.

Richard - How long was your video in the NAM Store?

From what I recall, it's been well over a year, and I find it very hard to believe that the moderation/people who run NAM would put something into their store that they had not personally viewed and reviewed to make sure it was appropriate for sale in this venue.
With that said, it makes absolutely no sense for them to pull the video now, just because their hypocrisy has been illuminated and it looks bad for them to allow the video but not discussion of what happens in it. It's like they say "Pay me to look at this, but if I catch you talking about it, you get the boot"

From what I can see, they got caught with their pants down, and had to try and eliminate all trace of their double-faced nature, the same nature that caused them to ban some members for doing and discussing exactly what they were profiting from in the video. It can't go both ways, you can't say "Don't talk about doing this because it is illegal and brings shame on the NAM community, but if you want to watch it, give us some money and you can"

Discussion is just that, discussion. Talking about doing something doesn't mean doing it, so there is really no reason for a ban on discussion about speeding or racing, as I can just take some video, say the speed and sounds were enhanced, and sell it on the site with no problems.

(I know that this isn't what Richard did, but I think it gets the point across)

 

Discussing it further before dropping the issue:

Richard, I did not create this thread, but it appears I have become the author only due to some administrative editing which caused my post on the third page of an existing thread to become the first post.

My intention was never to attack you personally but to play Devi's Advocate and point out a discrepancy as I saw it between the site guidlines and the offerings in the site's storefront. I'm just one guy expressing his thoughts and opinions on an online discussion forum. I am not always right, and do not have any significant influence on the actions of the site administrators.

 

Be careful when you say "hosting club"... because no one club hosts MOTD, and it's a very sensitive issue here on NAM. The past two years, DCMM has tried to coordinate events and registration, but that doesn't mean we set "rules" for anyone to follow. Our event program had a line at the bottom of EVERY page reminding people to respect the lines / not cross the double yellow... but there is little that any of us can do in the way of enforcement. All we have is peer pressure and actually calling the real authorities if justified.So why did you include it in the video, Richard? You just fully admitted it was a dangerous thing to do, on the blind corner... why display it?Point well taken... although based upon some of your comments, it isn't a black or white issue... some of the video displayed was dangerous driving, by your own admission. As Clover and Yucca both clarified... Yucca didn't create the thread... I created the thread to separate the discussion from Darkness's thread that asked for email addresses. However, when I moved the discussion posts from Darkness's thread to this one, his post became the oldest post (chronologically) in the thread... so it looks like he started it.Hold on a minute, we're just talking about it. Personally I did not directly ask any of the moderators nor Mark F himself to remove it. We expressed valid concerns (even if they are not quite as bad as first thought), we did not make the decision... so please don't place unfair blame where it doesn't belong. Your video should be able to stand on its own merits in everyone's eyes. If it can't, that's not our problem.This is NAM, a discussion forum. We are going to discuss whatever we choose to discuss, provided it does not break NAM guidelines. If you don't want to participate in any given discussion, don't! Asking people to stop "wasting time" (which is completely subjective) making posts is just plain silly.

 

Valid concerns, gimmie a break. If the concern you have/had are that on one hand NAM does not allow posts regarding illegal driving, but on the other hand they offer for sale a video that shows illegal driving, it's time to back away from your computer, put down the mouse, and find something, ANYTHING more important in life to be concerned with.

Steve

IB4TL

 

I fail to see how expecting consistent behavior in "rule enforcement" is a bad thing. Regardless of the rule... if someone is treated one way (as Darkness was), then anyone else should be treated the same way (as OctaneGuy now has been).

If you were the one who was "slapped" with breaking guidelines, and someone else was getting away with them, how would you feel? Despite my disagreements with Darkness in this thread, I am sticking up for him in expecting consistent treatment for others. I am also sticking up for Yucca for bringing the discrepancy to our attention. I have plenty in life to be concerned with... and fair rule enforcement (in ALL aspects of life) is one of them. Got a problem with that?First sndwave, now you... you just want it to happen, huh? Lively debate that does not get personally insulting is healthy. Guidelines have not been broken in this thread... although your inference to my "life" (or lack thereof) is borderline... seems you want to start something. I'm not going to bite.

 

So then be consistant, there have been alot of videos posted on NAM, MINIs, non-MINIs, Motorcycles etc. That have had illegal or dangerous activity in them, lock or remove all the links. Where does the censorship end?

Are you going to prevent someone from posting a link to Google Video or You Tube, because someone may end up seeing a video of illegal driving, even though the original link was to something unrelated?

Truely, wouldn't bother me in the least.
No problem, your due diligence should be applauded
Nope don't want it to happen, censorship in any form is a bad thing as far as I am concerned.
Absolutely, I agree 100%
Not a personal attack against you, my inference was to anyone, who is so concerned with Justice regarding this topic.
Too late, ya did.

Steve