Brake Pad Discussion
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Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: San Antonio, TX
After another day at the track and with stock pads rapidly wearing, dusting, and fading, I need to buy a set of pads. I had been considering EBC Greenstuff in the past, but I've heard that they wear fairly quickly and their performance is not much above the stock pads. Perhaps more importantly, I understand that the DSC sensors won't fit onto the rear pads right now.
Then I was leaning toward the El-Cheapo Mintex Reds which are supposedly somewhat lower dusting than stock and perhaps slightly better performing.
Then there are a whole range of different track and/or AutoX specific pads out there, most of which are not well suited for street use either because they are too loud or because they are not really formulated to function below hotter temperatures which most of us don't see on the street.
So could we please start a discussion here regarding the relative merits and demerits of the various brake pads out there? Of particular interest to me are four things: Performance, Price, Range of Usage (Street? AutoX? Track? Combo?), and Ability to be used with DSC, but please feel free to write about as much or as little as you want.
Thanks! :smile:
Then I was leaning toward the El-Cheapo Mintex Reds which are supposedly somewhat lower dusting than stock and perhaps slightly better performing.
Then there are a whole range of different track and/or AutoX specific pads out there, most of which are not well suited for street use either because they are too loud or because they are not really formulated to function below hotter temperatures which most of us don't see on the street.
So could we please start a discussion here regarding the relative merits and demerits of the various brake pads out there? Of particular interest to me are four things: Performance, Price, Range of Usage (Street? AutoX? Track? Combo?), and Ability to be used with DSC, but please feel free to write about as much or as little as you want.
Thanks! :smile:
2nd Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 88
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From: Sydney, Australia
some good information from this post.
comparison of different brake pads by randy.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=15063
however i am not sure if they work with the DSC tho........
comparison of different brake pads by randy.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=15063
however i am not sure if they work with the DSC tho........
Thread Starter
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Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: San Antonio, TX
Thanks for the info. Here's a cut-and-paste of Randy's run down:
Randy said:
Hmmmm....sounds like the things that would work for me might be either strictly Ferodo 2500's (for street AND track) or going with Mintex on the street and then switching to Ferodo 3000s when I take COOP to the track. I'm still wondering about DSC with the Mintex pads and the Ferodo 2500s (don't care about the 3000s, since I don't use DSC on the track!)
Randy said:
EBC Greens:
A good, lower cost solution to brake dust on the MINI. They do not have great track wear - and had some issues with rotor wear. If you never go to the track, this would not be an issue. They have a decent mu value over an OK heat range - but they are effective at low temps, somethign good for the street and track.
EBC Reds:
These are what EBC recommend for track use. I don't. I would not recommend these pads for really anything. If it is lower dust you want, the greens will work fine on the street for a lower cost, and are effective at a lower temp. I have had these pads wear down to the backing plates in only one day of track use, and the stopping distance was not improved significantly over stock. The number of fade free stops was also only marginally better than stock. They do also reduce dust however.
Ferodo DS2500:
These pads are the best available all around pads in my opinion for a number of reasons. They have a very high mu that remains almost flat across the effective heat range. That heat range is broad, working undr cold temps (for street and autocross) as well as very high temps. The rotor wear and pad life are better than the EBC pads, and the pad wear is better than stock (I'd say the rotor wear seems comparable). They are very near the EBC pads in reduction of dust. Th drawback to these pads is the cost and, on two rare occasions, I have had folks that report slight squeaking under light pedal pressure.
Ferodo DS 3000:
This is a track pad that makes the DS2500 look cheap. They have a higher mu, but to get it requires more heat. That makes them less than ideal for the street or autocrossing. They have excellent wear on the rotor and very progressive characteristics. These are what I recommend to folks using the car strictly for track use or for people dedicated enough to run different pads at the track than on the street.
Bottom line: Fo those not interested in significantly better performance, and want new pads just to get rid of the dust, go with the EBC Greens. They are cheaper by almost half. For folks interested in reducing dust and getting better performance for the street, track, or autocrossing, and you can afford the extra cost, get the DS2500s.
A good, lower cost solution to brake dust on the MINI. They do not have great track wear - and had some issues with rotor wear. If you never go to the track, this would not be an issue. They have a decent mu value over an OK heat range - but they are effective at low temps, somethign good for the street and track.
EBC Reds:
These are what EBC recommend for track use. I don't. I would not recommend these pads for really anything. If it is lower dust you want, the greens will work fine on the street for a lower cost, and are effective at a lower temp. I have had these pads wear down to the backing plates in only one day of track use, and the stopping distance was not improved significantly over stock. The number of fade free stops was also only marginally better than stock. They do also reduce dust however.
Ferodo DS2500:
These pads are the best available all around pads in my opinion for a number of reasons. They have a very high mu that remains almost flat across the effective heat range. That heat range is broad, working undr cold temps (for street and autocross) as well as very high temps. The rotor wear and pad life are better than the EBC pads, and the pad wear is better than stock (I'd say the rotor wear seems comparable). They are very near the EBC pads in reduction of dust. Th drawback to these pads is the cost and, on two rare occasions, I have had folks that report slight squeaking under light pedal pressure.
Ferodo DS 3000:
This is a track pad that makes the DS2500 look cheap. They have a higher mu, but to get it requires more heat. That makes them less than ideal for the street or autocrossing. They have excellent wear on the rotor and very progressive characteristics. These are what I recommend to folks using the car strictly for track use or for people dedicated enough to run different pads at the track than on the street.
Bottom line: Fo those not interested in significantly better performance, and want new pads just to get rid of the dust, go with the EBC Greens. They are cheaper by almost half. For folks interested in reducing dust and getting better performance for the street, track, or autocrossing, and you can afford the extra cost, get the DS2500s.
Chi -
I'm running on the street with the Ferodo 2500's and LOVE them. I put them on for a track event a few months ago and couldn't bring myself to take them off. I'll admit that if I'm not pushing the car very hard on the street they'll start squeaking a bit, but that's my own fault. A good bedding session works off the glaze nicely.
And the improvement in the brake dust is.. amazing. I didn't swap over for that reason (I wanted to be sure I had something that wasn't going to fade at Watkins Glen in the middle of summer with two drivers going back-to-back.. and they didn't. They ROCKED.).
I'm running on the street with the Ferodo 2500's and LOVE them. I put them on for a track event a few months ago and couldn't bring myself to take them off. I'll admit that if I'm not pushing the car very hard on the street they'll start squeaking a bit, but that's my own fault. A good bedding session works off the glaze nicely.
And the improvement in the brake dust is.. amazing. I didn't swap over for that reason (I wanted to be sure I had something that wasn't going to fade at Watkins Glen in the middle of summer with two drivers going back-to-back.. and they didn't. They ROCKED.).
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 231
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From: Washington, US
I've had some experience with the Porterfield R4-S pads on my WRX. Their initial bite is excellent. Some people have complained about the dust and squelling but I haven't had either problem. I doubt the DCS sensor will work with any of the aftermarket pads (although I'm not certain how the sensor/pad interact.) I guess I'm just throwing them in for consideration.
One more thing, I've known someone who used EBC Greens on a track for a Solo I event and he had some very scary fade problems that also required getting new rotors afterward. Needless to say, the Greens were binned asap.
Thread Starter
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Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: San Antonio, TX
The Ferodo 2500s are sounding pretty good right now. I'm wondering if anyone is using the more performance-oriented Mintexs and would care to comment. Also, can anyone confirm whether or not the Ferodos or Mintexs have the DSC sensor "cutouts"?
Temporarily Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
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From: Denver
As for the DSC, it uses an ABS sensor. The newer cars (mid-2003) use pad wear sensors, but they aren't part of the DSC system. You don't even need to reuse them. The plug that goes into the pad can just be tied with a zip-tie to the ABS line to keep it out of the way. That does mean of course that you will have to do what all of us with the pre-'03 cars have to do - look at the pad every once in a while to make sure you have a bit.
We tried the Mintex on the Grand Am car, and it worked well. For the combo pads, I still don't think you could do better than the Ferodo. The RS4 from Porterfield had a door stopping issue on the MINI, but I do like the pad compound.
Hope that helps!
Randy
We tried the Mintex on the Grand Am car, and it worked well. For the combo pads, I still don't think you could do better than the Ferodo. The RS4 from Porterfield had a door stopping issue on the MINI, but I do like the pad compound.
Hope that helps!
Randy
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Thread Starter
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Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
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From: San Antonio, TX
Randy: "A door stopping issue"?
OK, I see. So it's not a DSC sensor at all. I had seen it referred to multiple times as being a DSC sensor. If all it is is a brake pad sensor, then I think I can do without the "idiot light" and check them myself. I was not even aware that these cars had break pad sensors...
The real brake comparison for my needs would probably be between the Ferodo 2500s and the Mintex M1144s. I would expect to see some of the Helix 13 peeps chime in on these at some point in time, since they're apparently Mintex guys.
Are there any other pads out there that people are using for these cars? I hear lots of good things about Hawk brand pads, but I don't recall seeing them available anywhere.
OK, I see. So it's not a DSC sensor at all. I had seen it referred to multiple times as being a DSC sensor. If all it is is a brake pad sensor, then I think I can do without the "idiot light" and check them myself. I was not even aware that these cars had break pad sensors...
The real brake comparison for my needs would probably be between the Ferodo 2500s and the Mintex M1144s. I would expect to see some of the Helix 13 peeps chime in on these at some point in time, since they're apparently Mintex guys.
Are there any other pads out there that people are using for these cars? I hear lots of good things about Hawk brand pads, but I don't recall seeing them available anywhere.
Thread Starter
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Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: San Antonio, TX
So, does anyone have any info on Hawk pads for the Cooper? I found a thread from ages ago in which Randy was looking into getting Hawks available for the MINI. I also found what looked like a part number for Hawks for the MINI, but I'm not sure if it was right or not...
So, Hawk anyone? Mintex anyone? Is everyone on MCO running stock brakes?
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2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Boulder,CO USA
I'd vote for the Ferrado 2500's. Minimal dust, great stopping power and great fade resistance at my second track day. The stock pads cracked after one track day and then squeeked and dirty as all crap. Sure the Ferrados can develop a little squeal, but that's easy to remedy as has been discussed before. Randy Webb Motorsport was my source. I also upgraded the fluid since the stock stuff boiled and bubbled.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
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The sensor on the Greenstuffs is for the brake pad wear indicator. It fits the front pads but current designs on the rear pads do not have a place for it.
I agree that these create less dust, but they squeal like crazy. I even took them off and put anti-squeal stuff on them.. it helped for about 15seconds. The pedal feel is almost identical to the OEM pads. Not sure how they would work on the track... But I'm going back to the OEM pads tommorrow. Can't take the squealing anymore.
I agree that these create less dust, but they squeal like crazy. I even took them off and put anti-squeal stuff on them.. it helped for about 15seconds. The pedal feel is almost identical to the OEM pads. Not sure how they would work on the track... But I'm going back to the OEM pads tommorrow. Can't take the squealing anymore.
Former Vendor
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Under your car
COOP asked me to respond to this thread, which will be hard since I don't have track experience will all of the pads discussed. The experience that I have which includes stock, Green Stuff, Red Stuff, and a prototype of the M1144s would be anecdotal because they weren't tested side-by-side, on the same track, on the same day, in the same weather, on the same car. To my knowledge, no magazine, independent tester, or tuner has, so any vendor's opinion on this subject must be taken with the understanding that they are going to try to sell their pad.
That having been said, here's my experience with the above mentioned pads:
Stock pads: Pocono East course: Very tight, relatively slow, multi turn course. The pads worked surprisingly well over the 4 twenty minutes sessions. There was no remarkable fade, although there was a slight sponginess after the second session, so we bled the brakes as a precaution, with no air in the lines.
Green Stuff: Pocono North Course: higher speed, 10 turns. The green stuff performed flawlessly, no fade, no sponginess, no excessive wear to either rotor. The north course is less punishing to brakes than the east.
Mintex Prototype M1144: Summit Point and Jefferson Circuits: Summit is high speed and Jefferson is small and tight. We absolutely hammered the car. Three drivers, SCCA licensed racers, with sixty-minute on and twenty-minute off sessions. Heavy use of brakes. after a day the 1144s got a little spongy, and we had to bleed the rears twice over 2 days. At the end of two days the pads were pretty well shot. They had performed extremely well considering the abuse that the car took. At the end the pads were just over a quarter inch from the backing plates with slight flaking at the edges. No unusual wear to the rotors.
Red Stuff: Jefferson Circuit: 1.1 mile lower-speed course (Imagine running through a huge autocross course over and over. The Red Stuff performed flawlessly over 3 1/2, 25 minute sessions. No fade, no significant spongyness, and no unusual wear to the pad or rotor.
Ultimately, no performance brake manufaturer for the MINI has some exclusive technology that the others don't. None of the pads listed on this thread are bad. Some have slightly different purposes than others, Thier price is somewhat determined by the distribution structure: does the primary distributor have exclusive rights to a product?, where is the product manufactured?, What's the marketing strategy for the product?, etc.
If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to call us, or check out our other propaganda at http://www.helix13.com.
That having been said, here's my experience with the above mentioned pads:
Stock pads: Pocono East course: Very tight, relatively slow, multi turn course. The pads worked surprisingly well over the 4 twenty minutes sessions. There was no remarkable fade, although there was a slight sponginess after the second session, so we bled the brakes as a precaution, with no air in the lines.
Green Stuff: Pocono North Course: higher speed, 10 turns. The green stuff performed flawlessly, no fade, no sponginess, no excessive wear to either rotor. The north course is less punishing to brakes than the east.
Mintex Prototype M1144: Summit Point and Jefferson Circuits: Summit is high speed and Jefferson is small and tight. We absolutely hammered the car. Three drivers, SCCA licensed racers, with sixty-minute on and twenty-minute off sessions. Heavy use of brakes. after a day the 1144s got a little spongy, and we had to bleed the rears twice over 2 days. At the end of two days the pads were pretty well shot. They had performed extremely well considering the abuse that the car took. At the end the pads were just over a quarter inch from the backing plates with slight flaking at the edges. No unusual wear to the rotors.
Red Stuff: Jefferson Circuit: 1.1 mile lower-speed course (Imagine running through a huge autocross course over and over. The Red Stuff performed flawlessly over 3 1/2, 25 minute sessions. No fade, no significant spongyness, and no unusual wear to the pad or rotor.
Ultimately, no performance brake manufaturer for the MINI has some exclusive technology that the others don't. None of the pads listed on this thread are bad. Some have slightly different purposes than others, Thier price is somewhat determined by the distribution structure: does the primary distributor have exclusive rights to a product?, where is the product manufactured?, What's the marketing strategy for the product?, etc.
If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to call us, or check out our other propaganda at http://www.helix13.com.
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