EBC green vs. red vs Ferodo DS2500?
#1
08-22-2003, 06:48 AM
Please help me choose. Each seems to have advantages over the others.
1-Sounds like Ferodo has better pedal feel (35%) and bite but don't know about the dust.
2-Green stuff's got the best dust reduction but funky color and lower bite. What about pedal feel?
3-Red stuff's higher temp rated but the same questions as green.
Any advice would be appreciated. I want to reduce dust, increase bite, and a firmer pedal feel.
1-Sounds like Ferodo has better pedal feel (35%) and bite but don't know about the dust.
2-Green stuff's got the best dust reduction but funky color and lower bite. What about pedal feel?
3-Red stuff's higher temp rated but the same questions as green.
Any advice would be appreciated. I want to reduce dust, increase bite, and a firmer pedal feel.
#2
08-22-2003, 06:53 AM
I only had the Green pads on my MCS, and they did nothing for fade resistance, however they did improve pedal feel (more linear) and dramatically reduce dusting. I've seen Green pads after one day of auto-x, they were down to the backing plates! I had my pads down to about nothing after 7500 miles. I'm getting the Ferodo 2500's next time.
Botton line:
Green Stuff: low dust, good feel, but only for grandma's sunday driver
(anybody have experience with Mintex or Hawk pads on the MINI?)
_________________
Botton line:
Green Stuff: low dust, good feel, but only for grandma's sunday driver
(anybody have experience with Mintex or Hawk pads on the MINI?)
_________________
#4
08-22-2003, 07:14 AM
#6
08-22-2003, 07:33 AM
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I've got EBC Greenstuffs on the front and Mintex on the rears. While I don't auto-x, I'm no Grandma Sunday driver 
Pedal feel and stopping are better than stock - specifically in hard brake applications. Regular driving and brake use, slightly noticeable. Keep in my mind that I have stainless lines and slotted rotors, ATE Super Blue fluid. Had the Helix Stage 1 upgrade kit done. I'm also driving the Cooper - so we're talking a little bit of a lighter car to stop.
EBC's are great for reduced brake dust, Mintex are not as good, but better than stock.
Pedal feel and stopping are better than stock - specifically in hard brake applications. Regular driving and brake use, slightly noticeable. Keep in my mind that I have stainless lines and slotted rotors, ATE Super Blue fluid. Had the Helix Stage 1 upgrade kit done. I'm also driving the Cooper - so we're talking a little bit of a lighter car to stop.
EBC's are great for reduced brake dust, Mintex are not as good, but better than stock.
#7
08-22-2003, 07:39 AM
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#8
08-23-2003, 08:44 AM
#9
08-23-2003, 10:34 AM
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#11
08-23-2003, 05:51 PM
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the green shows through but after a couple thousand miles the are not noticeable. unless you clean them with a tooth brush :smile:. I have had Green stuff on my car for about 10k milea and they are great. I am supposed to upgrade to a complete green stuff package (Rear pads and rotors all around).
I have used ferrado's in the past but i was not wanting to pay over 100 bucks for just front pads. I rarely autocroos and do allot of street driving (17k in 7 months). Just did 1k miles 18hrs. I like my Green Stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have used ferrado's in the past but i was not wanting to pay over 100 bucks for just front pads. I rarely autocroos and do allot of street driving (17k in 7 months). Just did 1k miles 18hrs. I like my Green Stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#13
08-27-2003, 05:35 AM
i haven't swapped out brake pads yet on the mini, but have run ebc green (and others) on the subaru. i'll never buy an ebc product again. warped a set of brembo rotors and i'm not the only one it's happened to. do a search on http://www.nasioc.com for details and other stories about the ebc's.
going to try the ds2500's on the mini or possibly hawk hp+ if they make them for our application.
going to try the ds2500's on the mini or possibly hawk hp+ if they make them for our application.
#14
08-27-2003, 06:50 AM
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The biggest problem with any aftermarket pad not specifically designed to meet all OEM criteria is the fact that they don't meet all of the specs that have been engineered to give maximum wear, performance, and feel. Typically pads are the hardest part to spec for a car- I work for a brake manufacturer, and we recently tested 16-18 linings for a 2007 project-to replace one in current production, nothing passed all of our specs, and the only one that came close, was absolutely horrendous regarding wear. I can't stand the dust on my wheels, but I'm extremely reluctant to change from the OEM pads for the reasons I just listed-I can almost guarantee that some aspect of performance will suffer.
#15
08-27-2003, 06:59 AM
polmear, woah! I'm stumped now.
Ok, here's the deal; after installing EBC Green on my MCS, I enjoyed WAY less dust (a huge negative of the OEM pad), and also improved brake feel, as in a more linear feel, not a "touch it and they clamp" feel that the stock pad has a bit. At this point, all my tangibles are improved, I almost don't care if actual stopping distances are slightly reduced, or if pad/rotor wear is increased, or if fade resistance is reduced. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any other parameters for "performance"?
My Performance perception of EBC Green versus OEM:
Dust - better
Feel - better
one-time stop - can't tell
fade resistance - can't tell
wear - worse
'nother question for the brake expert: Why do domestic make vehicle have virtually zero dusting (like my brothers Neon), whereas european makes have tons of dusting?! (like BMW) I'm lost here, what gives?
TIA,
Ryan
_________________
Ok, here's the deal; after installing EBC Green on my MCS, I enjoyed WAY less dust (a huge negative of the OEM pad), and also improved brake feel, as in a more linear feel, not a "touch it and they clamp" feel that the stock pad has a bit. At this point, all my tangibles are improved, I almost don't care if actual stopping distances are slightly reduced, or if pad/rotor wear is increased, or if fade resistance is reduced. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any other parameters for "performance"?
My Performance perception of EBC Green versus OEM:
Dust - better
Feel - better
one-time stop - can't tell
fade resistance - can't tell
wear - worse
'nother question for the brake expert: Why do domestic make vehicle have virtually zero dusting (like my brothers Neon), whereas european makes have tons of dusting?! (like BMW) I'm lost here, what gives?
TIA,
Ryan
_________________
#16
08-27-2003, 07:59 AM
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>>polmear, woah! I'm stumped now.
>>
>>Ok, here's the deal; after installing EBC Green on my MCS, I enjoyed WAY less dust (a huge negative of the OEM pad), and also improved brake feel, as in a more linear feel, not a "touch it and they clamp" feel that the stock pad has a bit. At this point, all my tangibles are improved, I almost don't care if actual stopping distances are slightly reduced, or if pad/rotor wear is increased, or if fade resistance is reduced. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any other parameters for "performance"?
>>
>>My Performance perception of EBC Green versus OEM:
>>Dust - better
>>Feel - better
>>one-time stop - can't tell
>>fade resistance - can't tell
>>wear - worse
>>
>>'nother question for the brake expert: Why do domestic make vehicle have virtually zero dusting (like my brothers Neon), whereas european makes have tons of dusting?! (like BMW) I'm lost here, what gives?
>>
>>TIA,
>>Ryan
>>
>>_________________
>>
>>
2nd question first-easier to answer- NA OEMs typically use a semi-met lining. These produce less dust, but tend to be somewhat noisier; they also tend to do less 'rotor-eating'. European OEMs tend to use more NAO(non-asbestos, organic) materials; of course they are dusty and tend to be 'rotor-eaters', but they are quieter, and they tend to stand up to heat better-they also perform better during fade stops.
Now back to the first question- the performance specs also include noise testing, shear strength(both hot and cold), compressability (again hot and cold), hardness, how well the pad material transfers heat, how much they grow/shrink when exposed to heat/cold, the porosity, density and acidity of the pad material is critical as well. The big problems usually show during raod tests and performance tests, though.
I have been thinking long about the switch, just to solve the dusting issue; but I'm hesitant because changing one aspect of any system has effects on every other aspect of the system. I can't say whether the EBC's are better or worse, I just want to see what type of comments that others have with these pads. I know EBC claims that rotor wear is reduced and many performance gains are there, but there are two posts here that seem to point to excessive wear.
>>
>>Ok, here's the deal; after installing EBC Green on my MCS, I enjoyed WAY less dust (a huge negative of the OEM pad), and also improved brake feel, as in a more linear feel, not a "touch it and they clamp" feel that the stock pad has a bit. At this point, all my tangibles are improved, I almost don't care if actual stopping distances are slightly reduced, or if pad/rotor wear is increased, or if fade resistance is reduced. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any other parameters for "performance"?
>>
>>My Performance perception of EBC Green versus OEM:
>>Dust - better
>>Feel - better
>>one-time stop - can't tell
>>fade resistance - can't tell
>>wear - worse
>>
>>'nother question for the brake expert: Why do domestic make vehicle have virtually zero dusting (like my brothers Neon), whereas european makes have tons of dusting?! (like BMW) I'm lost here, what gives?
>>
>>TIA,
>>Ryan
>>
>>_________________
>>
>>
2nd question first-easier to answer- NA OEMs typically use a semi-met lining. These produce less dust, but tend to be somewhat noisier; they also tend to do less 'rotor-eating'. European OEMs tend to use more NAO(non-asbestos, organic) materials; of course they are dusty and tend to be 'rotor-eaters', but they are quieter, and they tend to stand up to heat better-they also perform better during fade stops.
Now back to the first question- the performance specs also include noise testing, shear strength(both hot and cold), compressability (again hot and cold), hardness, how well the pad material transfers heat, how much they grow/shrink when exposed to heat/cold, the porosity, density and acidity of the pad material is critical as well. The big problems usually show during raod tests and performance tests, though.
I have been thinking long about the switch, just to solve the dusting issue; but I'm hesitant because changing one aspect of any system has effects on every other aspect of the system. I can't say whether the EBC's are better or worse, I just want to see what type of comments that others have with these pads. I know EBC claims that rotor wear is reduced and many performance gains are there, but there are two posts here that seem to point to excessive wear.
#17
08-27-2003, 10:22 PM
#18
08-29-2003, 10:10 PM
Ok polmear, I'll play Devil's Advocate, Part 2
If generally, European makes use organic pads to primarily reduce noise, why were the OEM pads on the MINI louder than the semi-metallics on the Neon? How's that for irony!
So, for us backyard mechanics and amateur enthusiasts, how do we go about picking the best OEM-alternative pad for our needs? (Obviously, this is the main point of the thread )
Thanks for your help,
Ryan
If generally, European makes use organic pads to primarily reduce noise, why were the OEM pads on the MINI louder than the semi-metallics on the Neon? How's that for irony!
So, for us backyard mechanics and amateur enthusiasts, how do we go about picking the best OEM-alternative pad for our needs? (Obviously, this is the main point of the thread
)Thanks for your help,
Ryan
#19
08-29-2003, 10:34 PM
As someone who has used all three on the street, at the track, and at an autocross, I'll give you my impressions (I also have each available, so I'm not biased in that direction either).
EBC Greens:
A good, lower cost solution to brake dust on the MINI. They do not have great track wear - and had some issues with rotor wear. If you never go to the track, this would not be an issue. They have a decent mu value over an OK heat range - but they are effective at low temps, somethign good for the street and track.
EBC Reds:
These are what EBC recommend for track use. I don't. I would not recommend these pads for really anything. If it is lower dust you want, the greens will work fine on the street for a lower cost, and are effective at a lower temp. I have had these pads wear down to the backing plates in only one day of track use, and the stopping distance was not improved significantly over stock. The number of fade free stops was also only marginally better than stock. They do also reduce dust however.
Ferodo DS2500:
These pads are the best available all around pads in my opinion for a number of reasons. They have a very high mu that remains almost flat across the effective heat range. That heat range is broad, working undr cold temps (for street and autocross) as well as very high temps. The rotor wear and pad life are better than the EBC pads, and the pad wear is better than stock (I'd say the rotor wear seems comparable). They are very near the EBC pads in reduction of dust. Th drawback to these pads is the cost and, on two rare occasions, I have had folks that report slight squeaking under light pedal pressure.
Ferodo DS 3000:
This is a track pad that makes the DS2500 look cheap. They have a higher mu, but to get it requires more heat. That makes them less than ideal for the street or autocrossing. They have excellent wear on the rotor and very progressive characteristics. These are what I recommend to folks using the car strictly for track use or for people dedicated enough to run different pads at the track than on the street.
Bottom line: Fo those not interested in significantly better performance, and want new pads just to get rid of the dust, go with the EBC Greens. They are cheaper by almost half. For folks interested in reducing dust and getting better performance for the street, track, or autocrossing, and you can afford the extra cost, get the DS2500s.
Hope that helps!
BTW, I match prices, so just call and tell me what the RaceShopper price is and I'll match it if I'm not already cheaper.
Randy
720-841-1002
EBC Greens:
A good, lower cost solution to brake dust on the MINI. They do not have great track wear - and had some issues with rotor wear. If you never go to the track, this would not be an issue. They have a decent mu value over an OK heat range - but they are effective at low temps, somethign good for the street and track.
EBC Reds:
These are what EBC recommend for track use. I don't. I would not recommend these pads for really anything. If it is lower dust you want, the greens will work fine on the street for a lower cost, and are effective at a lower temp. I have had these pads wear down to the backing plates in only one day of track use, and the stopping distance was not improved significantly over stock. The number of fade free stops was also only marginally better than stock. They do also reduce dust however.
Ferodo DS2500:
These pads are the best available all around pads in my opinion for a number of reasons. They have a very high mu that remains almost flat across the effective heat range. That heat range is broad, working undr cold temps (for street and autocross) as well as very high temps. The rotor wear and pad life are better than the EBC pads, and the pad wear is better than stock (I'd say the rotor wear seems comparable). They are very near the EBC pads in reduction of dust. Th drawback to these pads is the cost and, on two rare occasions, I have had folks that report slight squeaking under light pedal pressure.
Ferodo DS 3000:
This is a track pad that makes the DS2500 look cheap. They have a higher mu, but to get it requires more heat. That makes them less than ideal for the street or autocrossing. They have excellent wear on the rotor and very progressive characteristics. These are what I recommend to folks using the car strictly for track use or for people dedicated enough to run different pads at the track than on the street.
Bottom line: Fo those not interested in significantly better performance, and want new pads just to get rid of the dust, go with the EBC Greens. They are cheaper by almost half. For folks interested in reducing dust and getting better performance for the street, track, or autocrossing, and you can afford the extra cost, get the DS2500s.
Hope that helps!
BTW, I match prices, so just call and tell me what the RaceShopper price is and I'll match it if I'm not already cheaper.
Randy
720-841-1002
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