Help

I have just had fitted a set of H-sport springs (with OEM shocks) to a youthful 02 MCS (only 5k miles) and things are not what I completely expected. Prior to this mod, the only other suspension mod the car has is a 20mm rear bar (set on the softer of the three adjustment settings).

First of all the install seemed fine - no squeaks or rattles. The car's stance looks great (looking purposeful) . What I am a little unsure of though is the missing directness or crisp-feel when you turn the wheel . It is quite noticeable, as it is one of the characteristics which I feel, gives the MCS the gokart-like feel.

The ride on the H-sports actually feel more compliant and softer on initial turn-in (which feels better than stock). However, with the change in turn-in feel, the car seems to have inherited little more body-roll. Could this be right or is it due to the softer feel of the H-sports progressive design?

Are my observations consistent with this mod? Could the installer have missed an adjustment? Is there anything I could do (e.g. adjusting the rear-bar) in terms of adjustments (other than going back to OEM shocks) to get the same feel back? Would appreciate any advice.

Thank you.

 

The H-Sports are softer than stock on light bumps and on gentle curves, but they load up quickly on harder turns and set very quickly into aggressive turns. What you're probably noticing is deflection in your tires. Previously, you had your tires, springs, and sway bars all setting into a turn. Now, the springs are already half-way set, which is putting more lateral load on your tires.

Are you on factory run-flats? Have you checked your tire pressure lately? If you're running with less than 30psi, add some air.

You're also probably feeling the turn a little more on your body, which is again because the car is not rolling as much as it was.

Last question: how long have the springs been on the car? It usually takes a week or two for them to fully settle.

 

ahamos.

Valid points to consider. Thank you for the explanation

I've only had the springs installed a couple of days ago, and yes, the car is on run-flats and the tyre pressures are a little on the low side. I'll adjust the pressures on the next outing and re-post my next experience with the car

 

Forgot to ask, do you think my situation could also be addressed with a wheel alignment?

 

I think the biggest issue with the H-Sport springs is that they lower the
car and dial in a lot more negative camber. To offset that you are going
to need to get camber plates in the front and lower control arms in the
rear. Until you do so, your tires are going to wear due to the excessive
camber and induced toe-in. In addition, it is not, as you have found,
going to handle very well.

Just my $.02.

 

Yes, but your car doesn't have much adjustability as far as camber goes.

^^^ What he said is spot on.

My .02 here >> This is a problem whenever a car is lowered. Anyones lowering springs will do that. Not just H sports.

 

the increase in initial body roll comes from the progressive rate springs.

what you want to do is tighten the rear swaybar a notch or two to dial out
the roll. no need to do camber plates, etc for a small drop...it's only 1"
at best.

 

Increased negative camber is not going to equal increased body-roll. It enhances grip in turns. It does add (minimal) toe-in at the rear and will wear your tires more quickly, but none of that adds up to poor handling.

You do not *need* to add camber plates or replace your rear control arms (though the control arms aren't a bad idea), but you do need to be more vigilant about your tires.

Give 'em a few days, and see if they get better for you.

 

Well then, he should start saving his money for tires because is going to
need them.

One of our locals with an '05 MCS just put H-Sport springs on his car and
they were only able to adjust the rear camber in to -2.5 from the spring-
induced -2.8. That is too much for the street and will cause understeer.
At the very least DuckWerks should have his toe adjusted to eliminate
the toe-in caused by the springs.

 

I also have the h-sports and agree with most of the comments; goofy handling from too much toe and nearly 2.5 degrees more negative camber in the rear compared to the front, but I have had three sets of tires in 70k miles and they all went bald before the rear camber could do any damage.

 

im on GS-D3's running ~17k miles on this setup. no issues with
tire wear..plus I don't rotate my tires. no camber correction added
or needed for my setup. the extra neg camber on the rear is good
for insurance especially on street where road conditions change
dramatically all the time. car turns fine, inducable over steer, very
neutral with the Alta 22mm swaybar set at stiff.

 

Most people who had equipped their Mini with a rear bar PRIOR to lowering noticed this change.

Installation of a larger rear sway bar reflected immediate improvement in the Mini's willingness to rotate by reducing understeer. After lowering, the rear camber increased along with a slight toe out condition in the front. Inreased rear camber added understeer that the bar took out. The added front toe out numbed the turn in response. Together, the Mini feels sluggish compared to just having the rear bar added. What you need to do is to realign the complete suspension after the addition of the spring. After that...watch out...it will be the sharpest knife in the drawer

 

I have not lowered my mini for several reasons, but one thing I found out while researching the "pros and cons" thoroughly was that increased negative camber from lowering COULD be a tire wear issue. But I also learned that in addition, after your springs "settle" as everyone seems to insist they must, an alignment is important to set toe properly, even though you cannot adjust camber wthout the control arms and plates. Some have written that the toe adjustment is even a larger factor in the tire wear issue than the additional negative camber.

Kenchan is 100% correct on the progressive rate springs being the cause of the loss of the "go-kart" quality you love. The stock springs are actually linear (which is one reason why we have the "go-kart" like feel). At any rate, until you really get on it in a turn, you are not going to notice the H-sport's handling quality due to having to load considerable force before you get into the stiffer part of the spring.

Unless I "someday" turn my '04 into a trailered car, just for the track, I will not lower it, fearing at this time, that it would take too much of the "go-kart" fun out of my daily drive.

 

MSFITOY is exactly right. You need to get a 4/wheel suspension alignment to fully appreciate the lowered Mini.
Before you do the alignment replace the rear lower control arms, so the the rear camber can be brought back in line with what you have in the front for camber settings without camber plates. You don't have to replace the upper rear control arms as rear toe can be set with the trailing arms.
This will work great for the street. If later you want more, you can install front camber plates and get another alignment.

 

Thank you all for the tips.

MSFITOY - It's comforting to note that it is a common occurrence which can be addressed. So to address this you recommend:

- Check the wheel alignment and adjust to factory setting (if out) or should more toe-in be dialled in?

- Increase stiffness via the sway bar adjustment (as per KENCHAN's recommendation)?

 

You can increase the stiffness of the rear sway bar but you're just fighting the camber. Better to install an adjustable lower link (I use HSport) and reduce the camber to stock then have the front toe readjusted to zero. I forget what the number is for the rear toe but someone here will speak up...

 

From what I've read and understand in talking to others, adjustable rear links are highly recommended with lowering springs. However, camber plates on the front appear a little less cut and dry -- I'm interested in hearing further discussion on this area...

 

Front camber doesn't change appreciably with the typical lowering springs. If you choose to increase the rear camber, you would then add front to balance. In that case, you will need adjustable camber plates

 

sid- go back to drawing your rear diffuser. the rear swaybar suggestion
is to fight the initial roll the progressive rates brings while it adds more
turnability and quicker steering response; not primarily to fight rear
camber although it does.

the near -2 camber on the rear is not enough to cause dramatic
understeer especially when considering the other aspecs of the car like
tires, spring rates, etc.

the 22mm+ rear bar will mandate over the little additional neg camber
while bringing back the sharp gokart like steering response.

camber correction is not needed unless the neg camber bothers you
in terms of appearance, or you are trying to specifically dial in a
racing setup. for street, you can leave the cambers alone. the rear
neg camber is good for insurance purposes.

 

I know what you meant Ken...just saying that tightning up the rear sway bar to counter the increased rear camber is kinda a net zero gain

 

I still think DuckWerks would be happier with his lowering job if he invested in lower rear control arms and got an alignment....that he needs anyway because toe settings are off after lowering. {as he stated, he isn't happy with the way his car handles now}
After that see if he wants to play with sway bar settings.

 

When I lowered my 05 with the H-sport springs, I was hitting negative camber in the range of 4 degrees off vertical. That was some strange handling! Around hard corners the rear end would tend to skip out from under me. We added the lower adjustable control arms, and after a few attempts to dial it in right, I'm sitting at around -1.5 on both sides, and my car is sharp as can be. I have the Alta 22mm rear sway as well, but on the softer setting. The runflats are going to be a factor as well, so take that into consideration.

 

If one was to install adjustable rear control arms, what camber setting would you suggest?

 

^^ i would suggest first targetting stock specs. then play around with
the cambers from there. do one thing at a time though so that it
makes it eaiser to adjust.

 

-4?!! will- how much do you weight?!!! jk reminds me of a guy with his fat wife running a modded wrx
with stock sus. as soon as they sat in the car, was like -2" lowered. hehehe