As we are patiently waiting for the new JCW MCS on order we are starting to consider changing out the suspension. At this point we are stuck between the JCW suspension and after market coil overs. I do not want this to be a "bash the JCW thread" so please refrain from that. In choosing a new suspension, these are some of our concerns: The car is going to be a daily driver and will sit in a lot of traffic. Whatever we choose we want something reliable and comfortable. The car will see a few track events but not many. By a few I mean 1 or 2 max a year. We do like to go for spirited canyon runs about once every 4-6 weeks. What pros and cons are there for these two suspension choices based on our concerns above?

 

The JCW suspension upgrade is cheaper than a coilover, if that's a concern.

The JCW kit is also very nicely tuned for what you are looking for. It will offer improved performance over stock for those time you are at the track, but it will remain pretty much as comfortable as stock for the day to day driving. A few people have even said that they feel the JCW suspension upgrade provides a more comfortable ride than stock. I haven't said that myself, though. I don't feel it's harsher than stock in feel, but it does cause my Cooper to make more noises when hitting expansion joints and such.

I'll let someone else cover the high points of coilovers, as I've never used them myself. If you can, get a ride in MINIs with the various suspension options and see what feels right to you.

 

Aww cmon, I cant say its ... (thats not fun)

OK, I will be serious. From Randy ...

"You may notice that I didn't recommend installing coilovers. While the ultimate in handling can be had with coilovers, the truth is that they are bigtime overkill for 95% of MINI drivers"

http://store.webbmotorsports.com/ind...c897a198048fee

That should answer the coilover question.

As to the JCW Suspension vs Aftermarket, the only way to compare is to ride in both. If someone has A but not B, they CANNOT compare unless driven in both. So do not take the advice of someone who has NOT driven in both

good luck

 

That takes all the fun out of the internet, though.

 

I would suggest a bigger sway bar also. Maybe even just try that first and see if you still want more. I just put on the Hsport comp rear bar and it makes a huge difference.

 

I agree that it would be ideal to find someone who can give informed input on both suspension options, but like snid, I can speak only for the JCW suspension.

Like you, I was looking for an upgraded suspension that more than stock, but comfortable enough for for a daily driver, but stiffer for the twisties. In other words, the best compromise between handing and comfort I could find. I've been very happy with the JCW as that compromise. I think it is a great street and twisty road suspension, and my car with JCW and non- runflat tires is more comfy than my wife's MCS with stock suspension and runflats. The JCW suspension feels really well balanced, in comparison to stock. The real track guys say however that it is not the ultimate track set-up.

If after doing your research you decide on the JCW route, it sounds as though you will be very happy with it.

BTW you'll want an upgraded sway bar to go with either set-up.

 

Interesting points. The sway bar replacement is already planned for. That goes on right after the tires get replaced. Sounds like the JCW suspension might be a late Christmas gift.

 

I'd say the stock suspension is perfect for your needs (and mine) based on your planned use of the car. Modified suspension for 1-2 track days/year?
Bang for the buck is going to be awfully slim- the stock set-up is that good.

 

You're taking all the fun out of this with your logic.

AldoS is right, though.

 

Just curious if you've considered the Koni FSD's? They are supposedly designed to provide a very comfortable cruising ride, yet stiffen up in the twisties. The reviews are all very positive.

 

Can't really argue with that logic!
A better/lighter tyre and wheel package will improve handling and ride along with your up-coming sway bar, if that's what you're after.

Now and then I think about changing out the suspension, mostly for a more aggressive, lower stance. But she scrapes enough as it is, and I believe the JCW is a barely noticeable drop anyhow.
So if you mainly want it for the lowered look, I'd look at something else...

 

Have to agree with the groups assertion that for what your after, its probably not worth messing with coilovers. Suspensions are systems, just throwing together a somewhat random set of parts without careful consideration generally winds up with a less than satisfying result. Depending on what change in dynamics your after, you might derive far more benefit from simply rebushing the car or adding adjustable sways as others have suggested.

That said, there are obvious advantages to coilover systems with adjustable shocks over the JCW, ride height, cornerbalancing, the ability to adjust for oversteer/understeer compliance etc somewhat on the fly (systems without shock adjustments IMO are less interesting). It becomes a simple matter to dial in a bit more understeer for the street and then in a few seconds dial up the ability to rotate the car faster for an AX. Trouble is to really get the car the way you want it you have to A) know what you want and B) be able to sensibly manipulate the adjustments to get it. Adding adjustable bars makes the situation more complex, as you know have to be able to know whne it makes sense to manipulate the bar stiffness as opposed to the shock stiffness. The JCW is just one man's (okay probably a team of them) opinion of how the car should work. That may or may not jive with the way you think the car should behave.

So to figure this out, I'd ask you a coupe of questions. Can you tell generally whether the car is understeering or oversteering (or do you intend to learn)? And under what circumstances? Do you come off your couple of track days or AXs thinking "Jeez the car was really pushing into 3" or "I just can't get the car to rotate at the turnaround"? Can you sense this difference in dynamics in different phases of the corner (entry, mid-corner, exit)? Failing a yes to any or all of the above, do you have an experienced mechanic you trust to create a base setup for you that would allow you to learn about these things and tweek from there and are you in the least bit interested in taking the time and $$$ to do this? If the answers to the above are largely no, I'd drop the notion of coilovers. Find a JCW equipped car to test drive and simply make a decision as to whether that is a worthwhile improvement over stock for what your interested in.

 

As I read most of these post that has to do with suspension, I can't help but think that I am missing some thing here. The term "coil-over" being used to describe aftermarket systems in such a way as to imply that the standard suspension on the car is not a coil-over system. Some one correct me if I am that far out of step, my understanding is that the car comes with coil-overs at all four corners its just not adjustable like the PSS9 or Leda's or Koni's.

 

dkstone, you're right. The stock suspension is technically a coil-over suspension if you use the definition of "coil spring over damper". But, most people use "coilover" to mean "height adjustable coil over" at miniumum, and often height adjustable and adjustable dampening.

 

First do some driving schools!..........

 

So which suspension choice are you advocating here? The OP was pretty clear on what she wanted advice on.

 

Hard to answer some of these questions as we dont yet have the car. The JCW is currently on order but we were thinking of adding the suspension at the dealer before we picked it up. Right now all my experiance is with our MCc. We do have a good mechanic but based on what you said above and the other posts we are both leaning toward a JCW suspension. Thanks for the good input.

 

I put in the Bilstein PSS9 and a rear sway bar in my 2005 MCS.

I like the PSS9 setup I am just playing around with the setting right now. In the spring I will instruct at my PCA's regional car control clinic and will have sometime with it on the skid pad, then I can get the PSS9's dialed in.

 

Cool. The tinkerer in my wants to go with adjustable coilovers. But the reasonable side of me says that it will be overkill. Not neccessarily money wasted, but more like not taken advantage off. Will probably start of with better rubber and a rear sway bar and go from there.

P.S. A driving school is in the works.

 

Heres a stupid idea. What about just replacing the springs with a set of m7s or h-sports? Maybe installing a set of camber plates and a rear sway bar.

I know I was looking into randy webbs new rear sway bar. I'm really thinking also about m7's understrut system.

 

From talking to a few people who have that set up, my understanding is that it results in a bit of a harsher ride. Not something I am looking for. Also, there have been quite a few post saying that doing just the springs eventually results in shocks getting shot within a years time (or so). Hence the desire to either have it done all at once and not to do it half way. Randys bar does look nice, but it is a bit more expensive. Plus it looks like it would be very functional for track, but a bit of an overkill for street. (Kind of like a BBK)

 

Part of the problem here is the JCW spring rates are unknown. So when purchasing the JCW suspension, you're doing so based upon marketing info...unless you've had a good comparison ride.

If you are a tinkerer, spring rate information is very important...the most important against the back drop of springs, dampers and sway bars. Springs determine the fundamental character of the car. Simplistically, the dampers dampen the true shock absorbers - tires and springs, and also, sprung weight where rebound is concerned. Sway bars should be left for last, but unfortunately these are used in place of sound suspension set-up. Relative to the stock front bar, a large rear bar causes rotation at the expense of rear tire grip. Get the spring and damping rates correct first.

The autoX court is perhaps the only place to effectively use a large rear bar along with the stock front bar; rotation is needed quickly and for a very very short period of time. Otherwise, you've begun to unravel the good handling built into the stock Mini. An over-bared car is no fun, nor is it fast on a road course or the road.

We're fighting good sound physics; 63% of the Minis weight sits over the front axle. It's a poor set-up from the factory and achieving rotation at the expense of all else is wrong. Work with what you have within limits. Go for the JCW suspension, add a camber kit and leave the rest alone. The JCW folks know that they cannot fight physics, and won't. Take the hint.

Increasing the size of both front and rear bars is a different subject...

 

what he said. i took off my big rear bar recently and put the stock one back on. i have vogtland springs and stock shocks for now. at my last autocross i had way too much oversteer and it always felt too much on the edge on on ramps. now on the on ramps im faster and more stable feeling (ax season is over). i do have more oversteer under high rpm acceleration but if i lift a second the rear will step out just enough and then its back on the gas. next i will see what bilstein sp's will add.

 

The JCW kit was designed buy folks who have lots more experience, money, and equipment than we do...or I do. So, they've taken into consideration many things; roll centers and the center of gravity - roll couple. They know what the values of weight transfer are and can calculate these as they act on the roll centers and then the rest of the car. They know what wheel rates are appropriate for very spirited driving; spring rates, damping rates and sway bar rates + tire compliance all factor into wheel rates. These affect responsiveness, grip, and, balance. Sometimes, it takes very little fiddling to get it all wrong.

Stiffer and flatter does not guarantee a faster ride. I completely agree with Orthomini's appraoch as well. This is an iterative process - requires experimentation. One must understand a little about roll couple distribution, and, the character of the existing components before making changes.

 

I could have bought any suspension set up I wanted, but my needs are similar to what you've expressed--better handling, cornering and a better ride quality--and most suspension options are a trip down the opposite path or plain overkill. After much thought and research, I just purchased a set of Koni FSD shocks and I plan to mount them with the stock springs. Why? Because that's what they're set up for. I don't believe the MINI S needs to be any lower (function over form), and lowering it would only detract from streetability (real world driving). I will also install a H&R 18mm rear sway bar. Why, becuase the MINI S understeer is annoying. The slightly bigger 18mm bar will correct turning slightly more toward oversteer, help keep the rear tires flatter on the pavement (so an actual increase in rear cornering grip--until the limit is reached), and keep the ride quality no worse than stock. I think all other options including aftermarket coil overs (don't be technical here, you know what is meant), lowering springs and all other shock options will only decrease an already less than ideal ride quality. All I want to do is correct the stock suspension flaws so as to provide more fun driving, and I drive moderately aggressive (even by German standards). I do my real hard cornering on the kart track, but I do like a car that you can throw into a turn and be rewarded with predictability and cornering ability. I believe, and will soon find out, that the FSDs are the answer to the MINI S stock suspension flaws, provided you're not looking for the "tinker toy" factor or actually need a race suspension, which it doesn't appear you do, like me. This is also my 05's first real mod. I chose this first because I notice the suspension flaws more than anything else while driving. Sure there are times when I want more power (especially on the Autobahn while at sustained crusing at an average 120 mph), but I decided that the stock shocks have to go first. Once I get the car to stop bouncing off pebbles in the road, track better through turns, then I'll turn my attention to making it breath (mainly to get the fuel economy into the 20s at anything over 105 mph).