Here's a rant that I hope I can get some feedback and discussion on.

So... It seems to me that Koni went through a lot of effort to dial in the FSD shocks.
Matched the damping characteristics to the stock springs.... Both in postition in the stroke...a s well as the rebound and compression valving for optimal handling.

To me, this goes a LONG way in the effort to set up a great handling car.

Is lower really better in and of itself?

I see a lot of strut/shock sets that do not have matched springs or even call for a spring set that the shock has been tailored to....In this case... I see more of a potential for "so/so" handling than 'optimal'.. imo.

Depending on stiffer springs to improve body roll alone doesn't make much sense either.
Lowering, just for "stance points" really doesn't interest me in terms of what really makes the car better in the turns without making it a buckboard in terms of ride.

Is lower really better ? ... meaning, does a lowered car, by virtue of being lower really make for a better car?? If the springs are not matched to the shocks... or the ride is so stiff it is not compliant enough to keep the car glued to the pavement over irregular pavement.... then it fails as a car (to me).

Seems to me that there really are not matched shock/strut/spring sets out there, outside of coilovers (and most of them seem to be just OK in terms of out of box setup, to me).

Something like the FSD, that was designed/tuned to work with the stock springs (a "known factor") is a great approach to a BALANCED car.
Even when you have an adjustable shock... how many are both adjustable in terms of compression and rebound independently... and where are they setup in terms of springs to work with the baseline valve stack provided.... simple bypass valves like in most of the shocks really are not the best IMO.

Can you get, for example, an R53 with FSD's, good shocks and bushings.... with a PROPERLY matched pair of swaybars, at stock ride height, to handle really, really well? (I'm leaning towards yes).... and can it handle better than many stiff-sprung rides that do not have matched/adjusted swaybars that are lowered??

I'd really like to see a mfg call out a MATCHED set of springs... and I mean ones that have been setup from the mfg for the Specific spring... presented as a package.

The KW coilovers and some of the other mfgs provide good springs that seem to be matched... but most of them seem to still just "throw darts at a board" in terms of spring rates/force... and not really specifying a tested/proven setup.

For the most part, in any aftermarket highly adjustable suspension setup... most users will adjust the setup outside of optimum rather than hitting the target... there is a higher chance to make these worse than better unless you take a LOT of time in trial and error to dial in the suspension....

Thoughts??





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there are 3 different mini springs, not sure which one koni fsd are set to but I hated mine there was not enough damping on potholes.

Yes swaybars make a big difference, softer in front stiffer in rear you will find the small mini one bar on the front of track cars if they can be found, I have not found one for mine yet. ON the rear you can go pretty stiff.

You can get matched spring/damping, buy coilovers. I have swift springs on my koni v3, 8kg/mm in front and 9kg/mm in rear, KW gives enough adjustment so you can dial it in for dry or wet track. I use a stock front bar and hotchkis rear bar that is usually in middle setting. My setup is dialed in for track use and 200tw or slicks, you would probably not like this setup on the street. collin Greene sells BC coilovers with custom valving for swift springs if I did it again I would get his

 

What are you actually asking here??? I have a set of FSD's, on OEM springs, with a WMW rear sway bar. It handles superbly. Why bother lowering an R53??

 

I like my FSD's. I have stock springs, don't track my car, and they are the best compromise between better handling and ride comfort...which mine and my wife's back loves.

 

FSD struts are not designed for lowering, that would call for Yellows. +1 on why mess with lowering. An upgrade on the RSB and FSD struts is THE best upgrade bang for the buck...voice of experience.

 

I am running the fairly common combo of FSDs, IE fixed plates, and a 19mm rear bar on middle/stiff setting depending on what side of neutral I want. I find it to be extremely balanced on the track and certainly no more harsh than stock on the street - I don't believe that all things equal, lowering it would improve anything. It satisfies the 80/20 rule for handling and has fewer things to go wrong

 

From what I've read, there is not that much variance in stock springs... but it is a good question... what springs were the FSD's or Red's designed to run with OPTIMALLY.

Most that I've read about on this forum that run the soft front bar actually have higher rate/force springs on their Minis in the first place.
If you approach the suspension system as just that, a SYSTEM... is the extra harshness in these small cars necessary with well matched dampers/springs/bars??

Many of the coilovers really don't detail which springs they use and why... and what the shocks were valved for... best to let the valving, IMO, regulate fluid flow and damper action that a bypass valve. KW has main/tender springs in their offerings... and seems to tailor the valving spec to the spring... and uses the separate compression and rebound adjustments to simply fine tune.

Do you have any info/links on the Colin Green BC setup?

Talking to the techs at some of the coilover companies... they all agreed that if you are running fully open or fully closed with the adjustment... that it would be better to have the valving re-set for your specific needs.

For me... I really would not be into all of this tweaking for higher performance of a street driven car... but this DOES make sense others in track etc.

The only reasons I can see for lowering a R53 is IF that lowering improves the handling character.... and people that want a lowered look... both are valid reasons for some people. The degree to which it improves handling is not a "given" from what I can tell. Lowering has some serious tradeoffs for me... ground clearance in daily driving on real roads, less suspension travel and stiffer ride that generally must accompany that decreased travel.

One of the reasons for this thread....
Can a matched set of stock ride height struts/shocks/springs with equally matched front and rear swaybars... and good tires/wheels give as good of performance in terms of handling compared to a lowered MINI...without the tradeoffs of decreased clearance, increased NVH, and ability to navigate our roads comfortably??

FSD's and 'Reds' are a given that you don't use anything but stock springs...It is not ONLY the ride-height and overall-shock travel... but that the valving is MATCHED to the spring character. I really don't see truly matched springs in any of the aftermarket offerings for struts/shocks for the MINI R53's. Sure some struts/shocks are adjustable... but most are single bypass designs that are certainly not optimal in terms of fluid control, just by the nature of their design.

Are there any aftermarket, non coilover, sets for the R53's that feature a MATCHED spring with the strut/shock... or a spring that was designed for a specific strut/shock???

 

you can see my parts in my sig. I'm quite happy with the SAS's (new FSD). I had lowering coilovers before and although on the smoothest roads they may be faster, it was a punishing ride and \not well suited to the car. I plan on going to a stiffer front bar when I can afford it. I drove a car with a stiffer front bar and it was shocking how well it turned in and felt.I'm 90% there with my setup.

 

Yes the KONI FSDs are designed for the stock springs

 

Lowered can be better, or worse, depending on how it is done.

This R53 was set up with a full coil-over setup from Koni, and tuned by Turner Motorsports.

It was a full on STX build, and would corner over 1.1 g with 200 tw rubber.

Not too friendly on the street though, for all the reasons mentioned in the original post.

So much depends on the definition of "better".




Cheers,

Charlie

 

I've had a MINI on H&R lowering springs with bilstein B8's (if I remember correctly) and I currently have one on stock springs with FSD's and a 19mm sway bar on both. I didn't track the lowering springs, but my experience with them on the street makes me think they'd be faster on most tracks than FSDs and stock springs. I have tracked and autocrossed my FSD setup and it's really good, but there's still just a bit more body roll than I want. I think it's a very reasonable compromise considering how I use the car, but for pure handling, I think lowering the center of mass of the car improves the handling more than the best shock/spring/swaybar combo could.

That said, I think in the real world, FSD's (or whatever they are now) are the way to go. You get better handling and better ride quality, it's win/win! I think the 19mm rear sway with the stock front is the perfect way to balance the car most of the time, but I tend to err towards understeer because tail happy cars, while fun to drive, are usually slower and more likely to find armco. I haven't tried the IE fixed camber plates, but I think adding them into the mix could be really good.

 

Bump... Would love to get more input on this.

BTW:.... I am aware that the FSD is for STOCK springs only... not lowered or aftermarket springs.

I've been in some lowered cars that are pretty poor handling cars with expensive springs/shocks/struts on them... and people claim they love it and it is set up right.
The FSD cars that I've been in... with a good swaybar in back and good tires... were amazing in their handling abilities and beat all but the best setup CoilOvers I know of

So...talking dollars for dollars.... Is lower better, in terms of performance (how does it handle)??


I also have an R56 with very well dialed in suspension... lowered slightly (1") with Ohlins R&T's/Vorschlags, and uprated rear sway bar and great tires... It flat out performs...but costs huge money... and the gain in performance is not as much as you might think compared to the stock height FSD's



Cheers to a great new Decade.... 2020 !!



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Mountain, a 1 year update for me.. my opinion is the same. Its a great setup. I still wish the front sway bar was stiffer, but I find it hard to rationalize the installation expense. I may do it if I ever need a new clutch because the install will overlap, but for now, I'm very happy.

 

Not on MINI but on E46... just for input... running FSDs (Koni Special Actives) with Eibach Springs (OEM Sport / ZHP Replacement, due to a broken spring, not wanting lowering) with Michelin Pilot Sport AS 3+ on my e46 and it handles soooo nice. Snappy cornering and smooth.