Suspension Dropping unsprung weight in my MINI.... an invite to a discussion.
#1
Dropping unsprung weight in my MINI.... an invite to a discussion.
So.... looking at my Mini for a while here from some holiday time mods.... and the first thing that comes to mind following some gen maint items like motor mounts etc is the unsprung weight of my MCS.
I just love the car and how flickable and peppy it is.
To start with... I have the "S-Lites" R80 wheels... Which tip the scales at a portly 25 lbs per wheel... OUCH!
25 LBS !! Crazy for me.
In just looking at this list on Factory Mini wheels HERE, I see there are some decent choices to drop some lbs.
For NVH reasons... and general ride quality, I'm looking at running the 16" wheels with the hope of still being able to run a BBK like the Wilwood 11.75" kit or bigger in the near future.
WHEEL CHOICES
On that list above there are some good choices at good prices on the market
For factory Mini Wheels, the R119-6-star Twin-spoke, 6x6.5 ET48mm, at 18.5 lbs is my top choice in the 16" wheels.
Plentiful used... and drop weight by 6.5 lbs PER WHEEL.. nice.
Another, the R115-Rib-Spoke, 6x6.5 ET48mm, at 18 lbs is a decent 16" wheel as well.
Plentiful used too... and drop weight by 7 lbs PER WHEEL... even nicer.
My favorite of the factory 16" wheels is the R90-Cross Spoke, 6x6.5 ET48mm, but at 21 lbs is a bit obese in terms of unsprung/rotating weight.
ECS has a smoking deal on them now though.... HMM.
There are some good 16" aftermarket wheels out there too...but challenging to find in the 42-48mm ET sizes.... with DEDICATED, single pattern 4x100 bolt patterns.
The BBS 320, at 18.5 lbs is a nice wheel at an attractive price.
I just love the car and how flickable and peppy it is.
To start with... I have the "S-Lites" R80 wheels... Which tip the scales at a portly 25 lbs per wheel... OUCH!
25 LBS !! Crazy for me.
In just looking at this list on Factory Mini wheels HERE, I see there are some decent choices to drop some lbs.
For NVH reasons... and general ride quality, I'm looking at running the 16" wheels with the hope of still being able to run a BBK like the Wilwood 11.75" kit or bigger in the near future.
WHEEL CHOICES
On that list above there are some good choices at good prices on the market
For factory Mini Wheels, the R119-6-star Twin-spoke, 6x6.5 ET48mm, at 18.5 lbs is my top choice in the 16" wheels.
Plentiful used... and drop weight by 6.5 lbs PER WHEEL.. nice.
Another, the R115-Rib-Spoke, 6x6.5 ET48mm, at 18 lbs is a decent 16" wheel as well.
Plentiful used too... and drop weight by 7 lbs PER WHEEL... even nicer.
My favorite of the factory 16" wheels is the R90-Cross Spoke, 6x6.5 ET48mm, but at 21 lbs is a bit obese in terms of unsprung/rotating weight.
ECS has a smoking deal on them now though.... HMM.
There are some good 16" aftermarket wheels out there too...but challenging to find in the 42-48mm ET sizes.... with DEDICATED, single pattern 4x100 bolt patterns.
The BBS 320, at 18.5 lbs is a nice wheel at an attractive price.
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megaDan (12-12-2018)
#2
For Tires...I've looked around in the 16" sizes... and all are within 1lb of the factory size of 205/45R/15... in the same NON-RF tires.
Not sure if there is much to be gained in terms of weight loss here... but a pound is a pound !
The one that sticks out as a great tire for me... is the Kumho ECSTA 4X II in a UHP-AS tire... which is what I'd want.
The ECSTA 4X II - 195/55ZR16 is 19lbs
The ECSTA 4X II - 205/50ZR16 comes in at 21lbs
For comparison, the OEM size - 205/45ZR17 ECSTA 4X II - is 20 lbs.
... in the Goodyear Run flat 205/45ZR17, it comes in at 22lbs.
So... with the Kumho ECSTA 4X II 195/55ZR16 ... I only drop 1 lb... but I prefer the ride of this tire to to the stock tire measure.
This still brings the weight savings on to 7.5 lbs per wheel.
The Kumho ECSTA 4X II comes in, for me, as a solid price/performance value.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/89fkJ45eS3A" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Not sure if there is much to be gained in terms of weight loss here... but a pound is a pound !
The one that sticks out as a great tire for me... is the Kumho ECSTA 4X II in a UHP-AS tire... which is what I'd want.
The ECSTA 4X II - 195/55ZR16 is 19lbs
The ECSTA 4X II - 205/50ZR16 comes in at 21lbs
For comparison, the OEM size - 205/45ZR17 ECSTA 4X II - is 20 lbs.
... in the Goodyear Run flat 205/45ZR17, it comes in at 22lbs.
So... with the Kumho ECSTA 4X II 195/55ZR16 ... I only drop 1 lb... but I prefer the ride of this tire to to the stock tire measure.
This still brings the weight savings on to 7.5 lbs per wheel.
The Kumho ECSTA 4X II comes in, for me, as a solid price/performance value.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/89fkJ45eS3A" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Last edited by mountainhorse; 12-09-2018 at 07:58 PM.
#3
On the rear... It seems that one way to drop UNSPRUNG weight is to go with the R56 aluminum trailing arms.
From what I've read here... you can drop 12-13 lbs from the car... I'm assuming that is per AXLE... with a 6.- 6.5 lb per side reduction in unsprung weight.
With 6 lbs per wheel + 6 lbs per arm... that is quite a bit of unsprung weight drop on the rear... right where the car is the lightest...
12 lbs per corner on the rear... that is HUGE!!
Shocks and springs will also play a role here...
There are some shocks and springs that are lighter with the more complex designs having a heavier unsprung weight.
I'm curious if anyone has weighed a comparison of the front and rear stock OEM brake calipers and the Wilwood 11.75" F&R kit?
Someone who has actually put the two on a scale.
I could not find any numbers on that.
From what I've read here... you can drop 12-13 lbs from the car... I'm assuming that is per AXLE... with a 6.- 6.5 lb per side reduction in unsprung weight.
With 6 lbs per wheel + 6 lbs per arm... that is quite a bit of unsprung weight drop on the rear... right where the car is the lightest...
12 lbs per corner on the rear... that is HUGE!!
Shocks and springs will also play a role here...
There are some shocks and springs that are lighter with the more complex designs having a heavier unsprung weight.
I'm curious if anyone has weighed a comparison of the front and rear stock OEM brake calipers and the Wilwood 11.75" F&R kit?
Someone who has actually put the two on a scale.
I could not find any numbers on that.
Last edited by mountainhorse; 12-09-2018 at 08:55 PM.
#4
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mountainhorse (12-09-2018)
#5
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The Enkie Race wheels should get you down to about 15# per wheel. The Wilwoods are a great choice too. Not much else you can do unless you want to go down to a 15” wheel and then you are down to 11# per wheel. That Wilwood will still fit. One other thing to look at is tire weight. Tire Rack lists the weights of the tires they carry and you can save some weight there..
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mountainhorse (12-09-2018)
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mountainhorse (12-09-2018)
#7
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#8
I have done the R56/GP trailing arm conversion and I did weigh all the parts of each setup it was 11lbs lighter.
I also have the Wilwood brakes and just happen to have an extra caliper and pads, I can weight that out tomorrow for you also, I dont have any stock R53 or R56/JCW brakes handy to weigh maybe someone else does.
I also have the Wilwood brakes and just happen to have an extra caliper and pads, I can weight that out tomorrow for you also, I dont have any stock R53 or R56/JCW brakes handy to weigh maybe someone else does.
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mountainhorse (12-09-2018)
#9
What are the options out there for lighter weight shocks and springs for the front?
All of the aluminum coilovers look overly complex and heavy...
I wonder if a simple, well valved (fixed valving) setup with some lighter springs would be considerably lighter in terms of unsprung weight than coilovers?
Are there springs out there offered in Titanium...or lightweight high-tech steel??
.
All of the aluminum coilovers look overly complex and heavy...
I wonder if a simple, well valved (fixed valving) setup with some lighter springs would be considerably lighter in terms of unsprung weight than coilovers?
Are there springs out there offered in Titanium...or lightweight high-tech steel??
.
#10
My vote for R90's 16"
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#11
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What are the options out there for lighter weight shocks and springs for the front?
All of the aluminum coilovers look overly complex and heavy...
I wonder if a simple, well valved (fixed valving) setup with some lighter springs would be considerably lighter in terms of unsprung weight than coilovers?
Are there springs out there offered in Titanium...or lightweight high-tech steel??
.
All of the aluminum coilovers look overly complex and heavy...
I wonder if a simple, well valved (fixed valving) setup with some lighter springs would be considerably lighter in terms of unsprung weight than coilovers?
Are there springs out there offered in Titanium...or lightweight high-tech steel??
.
Shocks - you got me there. I had not even thought of that one for unsprung weight and I was not aware of aluminum ones. But, like springs, it could be argued that only the part attached to the steering knuckle is unsprung. The part attached to the body of the is sprung.
Wilwood brakes - I know I have seen post where these have been weighed...just don’t remember where...Give me some time and I might be able to come up with something. It is pounds saved, though. That I do remember.
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mountainhorse (12-10-2018)
#12
So as promised here is the weight of the Wilwood 4 Piston and the weight of a MINI Cooper S F57 front brake, I think the F57 is pretty close to the R56/JCW brakes on the front of the R53, the stock R53 S would be a little lighter. I wrote an article on making your own 'Poor Mans' R53 JCW brake kit.
Anyway the Wilwood WITH Pads is 5lbs 11 ounces
The F57 brakes with no pads are 10lbs 7 ounces
I was shocked the Wilwoods are nearly HALF the weight. Now the rotors will weigh more as they are larger than the Stock MINI Cooper S R53 rotors.
Anyway the Wilwood WITH Pads is 5lbs 11 ounces
The F57 brakes with no pads are 10lbs 7 ounces
I was shocked the Wilwoods are nearly HALF the weight. Now the rotors will weigh more as they are larger than the Stock MINI Cooper S R53 rotors.
Last edited by co0p3r; 12-10-2018 at 02:13 PM.
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mountainhorse (12-10-2018)
#13
Take out all unnecessary interior panels and sound deadening, speakers, etc. Go on a diet and lose weight to achieve optimum BMI. If so inclined, replace standard with lightweight race seats (let your wallet be your guide). I'm not being facetious here...What you're after is a "slippery slope" and, if you get carried away, my suggestions will ultimately be on your list of things to do.
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mountainhorse (12-10-2018)
#14
WOW!!!
Cool answers above.
On the Wilwood.... I would think, with the 11.75" rotors would be lighter on the front than stockers as they have aluminum hats..
But... the diameter is probably a little bigger. (and the weight of the pads prob makes up for it anyway)
What is the rotor diameter of a stock R53/R56?
Weight of this rotor?
But that is HUGE weight in terms of unsprung weight....with a lighter factory wheel, and the brake... compared to the stock R85's and factory.... that's 11.5 POUNDS of weight off the front.... not counting the rotors yet....
Wilwood front 11.75" rotor = 8 lbs, Hat = 1.7lbs and a few oz for the fasteners. ==> total rotor weight say... 10 lbs.
Cool answers above.
On the Wilwood.... I would think, with the 11.75" rotors would be lighter on the front than stockers as they have aluminum hats..
But... the diameter is probably a little bigger. (and the weight of the pads prob makes up for it anyway)
What is the rotor diameter of a stock R53/R56?
Weight of this rotor?
But that is HUGE weight in terms of unsprung weight....with a lighter factory wheel, and the brake... compared to the stock R85's and factory.... that's 11.5 POUNDS of weight off the front.... not counting the rotors yet....
Wilwood front 11.75" rotor = 8 lbs, Hat = 1.7lbs and a few oz for the fasteners. ==> total rotor weight say... 10 lbs.
#15
Take out all unnecessary interior panels and sound deadening, speakers, etc. Go on a diet and lose weight to achieve optimum BMI. If so inclined, replace standard with lightweight race seats (let your wallet be your guide). I'm not being facetious here...What you're after is a "slippery slope" and, if you get carried away, my suggestions will ultimately be on your list of things to do.
Looking to keep this on track specifically for unsprung weight though and not overall car weight reduction.
For me... and my observations in cars I've had as well as those I've driven... Reduction in unsprung weight really pays dividends in terms of ride quality and handling performance.
It seems with these first series minis that you can really drop some weight out of the car!
So far... with just choosing some lighter wheels, without going to an esoteric forged $6000 set, a lighter and more capable brake kit, some aluminum arms on the rear... can drop approx. 12lbs per corner.... That's a pretty impressive change in my book, and one that will provide noticeable, real-world driving, results. On the road or on track-day.
Things to ponder
.
#16
There are also some other 'reasonably' priced parts that will drop the unsprung weight.
Tubular front lower Arms for example. From what they say, drops another 5.5 lbs per side.... for around $700 delivered.
To me, that's big bang for the buck.
That would bring the front corner weight drop with brakes, wheels, arms to right around 17lbs per corner ... lots of potential there.
https://www.dna-racing.it/en/mini-co...-arms-kit.html
Tubular front lower Arms for example. From what they say, drops another 5.5 lbs per side.... for around $700 delivered.
To me, that's big bang for the buck.
That would bring the front corner weight drop with brakes, wheels, arms to right around 17lbs per corner ... lots of potential there.
https://www.dna-racing.it/en/mini-co...-arms-kit.html
#17
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So as promised here is the weight of the Wilwood 4 Piston and the weight of a MINI Cooper S F57 front brake, I think the F57 is pretty close to the R56/JCW brakes on the front of the R53, the stock R53 S would be a little lighter. I wrote an article on making your own 'Poor Mans' R53 JCW brake kit.
Anyway the Wilwood WITH Pads is 5lbs 11 ounces
The F57 brakes with no pads are 10lbs 7 ounces
I was shocked the Wilwoods are nearly HALF the weight. Now the rotors will weigh more as they are larger than the Stock MINI Cooper S R53 rotors.
Anyway the Wilwood WITH Pads is 5lbs 11 ounces
The F57 brakes with no pads are 10lbs 7 ounces
I was shocked the Wilwoods are nearly HALF the weight. Now the rotors will weigh more as they are larger than the Stock MINI Cooper S R53 rotors.
Rotor - 13 lbs (11-9/16” dia)
Caliper w/bracket and pad - 12.5 lbs
So it seems the F56 caliper weight is close. Also, I didn’t include the mounting bolts as they are about the same between the MINI and Wilwood brakes.
WOW!!!
Cool answers above.
On the Wilwood.... I would think, with the 11.75" rotors would be lighter on the front than stockers as they have aluminum hats..
But... the diameter is probably a little bigger. (and the weight of the pads prob makes up for it anyway)
What is the rotor diameter of a stock R53/R56?
Weight of this rotor?
But that is HUGE weight in terms of unsprung weight....with a lighter factory wheel, and the brake... compared to the stock R85's and factory.... that's 11.5 POUNDS of weight off the front.... not counting the rotors yet....
Wilwood front 11.75" rotor = 8 lbs, Hat = 1.7lbs and a few oz for the fasteners. ==> total rotor weight say... 10 lbs.
Cool answers above.
On the Wilwood.... I would think, with the 11.75" rotors would be lighter on the front than stockers as they have aluminum hats..
But... the diameter is probably a little bigger. (and the weight of the pads prob makes up for it anyway)
What is the rotor diameter of a stock R53/R56?
Weight of this rotor?
But that is HUGE weight in terms of unsprung weight....with a lighter factory wheel, and the brake... compared to the stock R85's and factory.... that's 11.5 POUNDS of weight off the front.... not counting the rotors yet....
Wilwood front 11.75" rotor = 8 lbs, Hat = 1.7lbs and a few oz for the fasteners. ==> total rotor weight say... 10 lbs.
Note that the base model R56 and R50 and the Gen I S, the R53, uses a smaller rotor than the R56 S model. So if you are looking for unsprung weight on an R53 the difference compared to the Wilwood is a little less.
There are also some other 'reasonably' priced parts that will drop the unsprung weight.
Tubular front lower Arms for example. From what they say, drops another 5.5 lbs per side.... for around $700 delivered.
To me, that's big bang for the buck.
That would bring the front corner weight drop with brakes, wheels, arms to right around 17lbs per corner ... lots of potential there.
https://www.dna-racing.it/en/mini-co...-arms-kit.html
Tubular front lower Arms for example. From what they say, drops another 5.5 lbs per side.... for around $700 delivered.
To me, that's big bang for the buck.
That would bring the front corner weight drop with brakes, wheels, arms to right around 17lbs per corner ... lots of potential there.
https://www.dna-racing.it/en/mini-co...-arms-kit.html
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Mini_Crazy (12-30-2018)
#18
The R84 x lite wheels are also a pretty decent light weight oem option. I think they're 17.5-18lbs per wheel and not bad looking, though I have always liked the look of the R90 wheels.
I have a set of the 17 inch S lites and the 16 inch X lites and the handling advantage of the lower profile sidewall is noticeable. I've been running summer tires on the 17s and snow tires on the 16s, but I might try some 205/40 tires on the 16 inch wheels next time and see if that's the best of both worlds.
I have a set of the 17 inch S lites and the 16 inch X lites and the handling advantage of the lower profile sidewall is noticeable. I've been running summer tires on the 17s and snow tires on the 16s, but I might try some 205/40 tires on the 16 inch wheels next time and see if that's the best of both worlds.
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mountainhorse (12-12-2018)
#19
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OZ wheels, 13.8 lbs in the 16” size:
https://www.tirerack.com/wheels/Whee...dClar=Cooper+S
Also, this is coming up with the 17” size. Just click the 16” option on the page. Even at that, the 17” size is only 14.6 lbs.
https://www.tirerack.com/wheels/Whee...dClar=Cooper+S
Also, this is coming up with the 17” size. Just click the 16” option on the page. Even at that, the 17” size is only 14.6 lbs.
Last edited by Eddie07S; 12-11-2018 at 01:00 PM. Reason: added info
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mountainhorse (12-12-2018)
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mountainhorse (12-12-2018)
#21
For factory 16's, the X-lites are going to be your best option. If you are willing to go to 15's 949racing makes wheels that are dedicated 4x100 and tip the scales at a whooping 10.9 pounds and they are reasonably priced. With these, even with tires, they will be nearly lighter than just the s-lites alone. Shedding more than nearly 15 pounds per corner. I think that Wilwood makes a BBK that will fit 15's. This could drop a few more pounds as well as the rotor will be smaller.
https://949racing.com/15x7.5-6UL.aspx
I read somewhere on the internet, so you know it's true, that for every pound of unsprung weight you drop, it's like adding 10 hp. This might be marginally true to a certain point... but it couldn't be a linear correlation.
I know in my R50 when I go from my Panasports (17lbs) to my 8-spokes (15lbs) or the 7-holes (12lbs), there is a marked and very noticeable difference in how the car accelerates. The Panasports have the summer rubber. The 15s have AS and winter tires so cornering is not their best feature.
https://949racing.com/15x7.5-6UL.aspx
I read somewhere on the internet, so you know it's true, that for every pound of unsprung weight you drop, it's like adding 10 hp. This might be marginally true to a certain point... but it couldn't be a linear correlation.
I know in my R50 when I go from my Panasports (17lbs) to my 8-spokes (15lbs) or the 7-holes (12lbs), there is a marked and very noticeable difference in how the car accelerates. The Panasports have the summer rubber. The 15s have AS and winter tires so cornering is not their best feature.
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mountainhorse (12-12-2018)
#22
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For factory 16's, the X-lites are going to be your best option. If you are willing to go to 15's 949racing makes wheels that are dedicated 4x100 and tip the scales at a whooping 10.9 pounds and they are reasonably priced. With these, even with tires, they will be nearly lighter than just the s-lites alone. Shedding more than nearly 15 pounds per corner. I think that Wilwood makes a BBK that will fit 15's. This could drop a few more pounds as well as the rotor will be smaller.
https://949racing.com/15x7.5-6UL.aspx
I read somewhere on the internet, so you know it's true, that for every pound of unsprung weight you drop, it's like adding 10 hp. This might be marginally true to a certain point... but it couldn't be a linear correlation.
I know in my R50 when I go from my Panasports (17lbs) to my 8-spokes (15lbs) or the 7-holes (12lbs), there is a marked and very noticeable difference in how the car accelerates. The Panasports have the summer rubber. The 15s have AS and winter tires so cornering is not their best feature.
https://949racing.com/15x7.5-6UL.aspx
I read somewhere on the internet, so you know it's true, that for every pound of unsprung weight you drop, it's like adding 10 hp. This might be marginally true to a certain point... but it couldn't be a linear correlation.
I know in my R50 when I go from my Panasports (17lbs) to my 8-spokes (15lbs) or the 7-holes (12lbs), there is a marked and very noticeable difference in how the car accelerates. The Panasports have the summer rubber. The 15s have AS and winter tires so cornering is not their best feature.
And, yes, it is very noticeable.
Also, there is a gain to be had by decreasing the radius at which the mass is located. That is, if the tire diameter is decreased by, say, 2 inches, the rotational mass decreases, even if the static mass stays the same. This will also show up in acceleration of the car.
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mountainhorse (12-12-2018)
#24
Just some interesting thought. Helium will not give you any measurable lightness. Fill with vacuum is lighter, if that is possible.
Additionally for argument shake, filled with helium will not improve acceleration as it is the rotational mass, not weight, and how far from the center the mass is located that matter. Even assume for a moment that the helium nullify all the weight of the tire and wheel, you gain nothing on the acceleration as the mass cannot be nullified by the gas.
Alternately, you can have 1000 lb wheel and the angular acceleration can be infinite if the mass is concentrated at the dead center, with a pin point area.
Additionally for argument shake, filled with helium will not improve acceleration as it is the rotational mass, not weight, and how far from the center the mass is located that matter. Even assume for a moment that the helium nullify all the weight of the tire and wheel, you gain nothing on the acceleration as the mass cannot be nullified by the gas.
Alternately, you can have 1000 lb wheel and the angular acceleration can be infinite if the mass is concentrated at the dead center, with a pin point area.
Last edited by pnwR53S; 12-12-2018 at 11:35 AM.
#25
The R84 x lite wheels are also a pretty decent light weight oem option. I think they're 17.5-18lbs per wheel and not bad looking, though I have always liked the look of the R90 wheels.
I have a set of the 17 inch S lites and the 16 inch X lites and the handling advantage of the lower profile sidewall is noticeable. I've been running summer tires on the 17s and snow tires on the 16s, but I might try some 205/40 tires on the 16 inch wheels next time and see if that's the best of both worlds.
I have a set of the 17 inch S lites and the 16 inch X lites and the handling advantage of the lower profile sidewall is noticeable. I've been running summer tires on the 17s and snow tires on the 16s, but I might try some 205/40 tires on the 16 inch wheels next time and see if that's the best of both worlds.
Good points... and I agree on the R90's
My favorite for design is the cross-spoke in many different brands.
Are they the same brand/make tires on your two sizes... apples-2-apples??
I've ridden in another with the POTENZA RE-71R 195/55/16 ... it certainly didnt lack grip
Also the ECSTA 4X II in the 195/55/15 grip super well too.
I've ridden on winter tires in the same size... not a stellar road character or road handling..
Would be good to have an apples to apples comp.
R84 - 17.5 lbs