Hey everybody, I'm looking at getting a new rear sway bar for my street/track mini. I wanted to dial some of the understeer out, but i did not want to get a bar that's simply too big to handle comfortably on the track with too much over steer. Obviously i would be looking at an adjustable bar so that i could start on the softest setting. I was looking at the Alta adjustable 22mm bar and I would like to hear from people that have one or any other bar, and have taken it to the track rather than just on the street.
Thanks!

 

Do a NAM search using Google. Far far too many threads on this to start another one. Good luck.

 

I'm not really seeing any that discuss sway bars for track. They all seem to discuss auto-x or what type of bar for the street.

 

Much of the advice out there is pretty universal. What you should be looking for is what is different in people's experiences with different size bars and then figure out how that applies to your driving and what you want to achieve. There is no one answer, even for the track. I would look a little more and expand your search. There are a number of ways to reduce the understeer that a MINI is made with. There are at least two current threads going right now on this subjece that I have posted on recently.

Before anyone can advise you, we need to know what level track driver you are (how many days, experience level), what mods and/or options that your car has that affect handling, tire/wheels you are using, tire pressures and ???? anything else you can think of.

If you are a newbe to the track, I would suggest staying away from an RSB, especially a 22mm bar and would instead recommend the IE fixed camber plates and wheels with more positive offset. These are much less likely to stuff you into a guardrail the first time you are too hot going into a corner and lift off the throttle in the middle.

 

This is a no brainer. You want the Hsport Comp rear sway bar. It is by far the best sway bar for the MINI. It is 25.5mm BUT it is hollow so it is the same stiffness as a 22mm bar, but weights less than the stock bar. Also it is adjustable, but it would be a waste to start on the soft setting, you'll want either the middle or the hardest setting for track use. 99% of them we install go on the middle setting and the customers never change them. And if that isn't enough the bushings have a grease channel that will hold the grease in, unlike other bars avail the grease on them just works it's way out and then squeaks. Then the Hsport bar has zerk fittings to regrease it if you ever need, other bars you pretty much have to remove to regrease them.
I'm currently running the Hsport Comp bar on my track car.

 

I have to say that i believe the advice isn't exactly universal. When someone who only auto-xs their car with a certain bar, they are more willing to accept a car with a higher amount of over steer than most people would for a track car. Which is why I'm looking for people who have tracked a certain bar rather than simply driving with it on the street.

As for your other questions i have 6 track days with the Mini so far and countless auto-x's as well plus other on track driving experience in other cars. Right now the car has a set of Yokohama Advan AD08's with stock offset and fixed camber plates. I usually run 2-3 psi less in the rears than the front.

 

Thanks for the tip. Are there any other characteristics that are different with a hollow vs solid bar other than the weight?

 

The only characteristic important about hollow bars is that they do have to be larger diameter to be the same stiffness. That's why it's 25.5mm vs 22mm. A hollow 22mm bar would be close to a solid 19mm.

 

Its also black, less obnoxious than Alta Red.

 

This is good advice, once you find the right level of mechanical rotation, play with rear tire pressures. A big +1 on the H-Sport Comp. bar: it's the best, and as Colin pointed out, it's not red.

 

Following along with Eddie07S, I think the best approach to reduce understeer is to increase the negative camber in the front and to add a slightly larger rear sway bar in the rear.

For the front I would suggest the IE Fixed Camber Plates or the H-Sport Adj Camber Plates. The fixed plates are less expensive but increase the ride height of the front by 1/8-3/16" and are not adjustable. The H-Sport adj plates do not increase ride height, are adjustable, but add a little harseness. Both plates have the advantage of replacing the failure prone OEM rubber top strut bushing with a stronger bushing and also have a thicker top plated to help prevent strut tower mushrooming.

For a rear sway bar would would suggest one of the folowing two options:
- If you add camber plates in the front you will want around a 19mm solid rear sway bar.
- If you not not change the front camber than a larger rear bar such the H-Sport 25.5 hollow bar (equivalent to 23 solid) would be good.

Depending on what spring you have you might also want to think about stiffer springs.

For my 2003 MCS I first installed the 25.5mm hollow rear bar and no front camber plates, using H&R lowering springs because that was cheap and easy. That worked good for the track but still had too much understeer for lower speed street and Auto-X use. I than added adjustable front camber plates for -2.0 camber and that created too much oversteer with the large rear bar for the street/track but was good for Auto-X.

For my 2006 MCS I first installed adjustable camber plates, stock sway bar with JCW springs. That worked pretty well but still had a little too much understeer for slower stuff such as street and Auto-X. I then added a 19mm solid rear bar with the camber plates and springs. That provided a nice balance.

Street and track are much different so there will always be a compromise. The compromise must lean towards the street because your car has to be safe to drive on the street.

 

Glad to see people recommending alignment/camber plates instead of just a big rear bar. The alignment is more important IMO.

My 2005 MCS is great with a 19mm rear bar on stiff with around -1.7 camber up front and -1.4 in the rear, 0 toe front and rear. I have Konis and mild drop springs. Great balance, fun, and easy to drive fast.

Still some understeer...but good for me. Also, my tires suck. Better tires with a little more camber up front and trimming my front bumpstops is the plan.

I have not used the H-sport comp bar and it's likely very good. Just a little too big for me. With different mods it might work well.

- Andrew

 

You said that you were looking for experience from track people. Here is my experience. I have a moderate amount of track time, but I still consider myself relatively new to being on the track and I have a bunch of autoX days. I had a stock MCS with the base suspension when I started; right down to the stock wheels but with the ADO8s. Basically the same as you. And you are right at the point I was at when I want to get rid of some of the understeer...6 track days.

I was able to get plenty of advice from my track buddies...some were putting in 20+ days a year with some very seriously setup MINIs. Their advice for me, with a basically stock MINI, was to not go with a big stiff bar. They suggested the Whiteline 20 mm RSB (at the softest setting it was just a little stiffer than the 19 mm on the firmest setting and at the firmest it was just a little less stiff than the 22 mm or 25 mm hollow bar on the softest setting). They then suggested the IE fixed camber plates and lastly was ditching the stock wheels for something lighter and more offset.

Out of those changes here is my opinion on each, in order of benefit for the track:
1) the IE plates...the best change for a street car used on the track or for autox. Really good initial bite going into a corner. Very responsive to steering input. Very fun on the street.

2) Wheels - lighter is always better. However, what people don't talk much about is how much better the tires on a MINI perform with a little wider track. Go to a 42 or 38 mm offset wheel. I am willing to bet your AD08s are rolling over and you are scrubbing off the edge-of-the-tread side markers. That is what my AD08s did until I changed the wheels. The camberplates helped with this, but it was a wheel change that finished the fix.

3)20 mm RSB - even on the softest setting and with the camber plates, it was too much. Off-throttle oversteer was very abrupt. It took a lot of concentration to take corner just right and not too fast. With any lift the oversteer was noticeable. Maybe for an experienced driver (20 - 30 track days), this could be usable. For me it was not the track fun I was looking for. If I still had a stock MCS, I would go with the 19mm the above along with the other 2 changes and would be very happy.

Lastly, IMHO I believe that the stock MCS suspension is too soft (springs and shocks) to be a good track car with that amount of power. A mild increase in the RSB size and camber plates are good bandaids, but without stiffer springs and shocks the car still has too much dive when cornering. But stiffer springs and shocks will all take away from the car being a fun street car. It is all a compromise.

FWIW - My current MCS with the MINI sport suspension and the only mod being a set of 38 mm offset wheels, is a much more fun and capable track car than my other MCS was with all of the above mods.

 

Thanks for all the advice. I believe I'm going to start small with a 19mm bar and work up from there if i feel I need too eventually. I've got camber plates now and 38mm offset but with a heavy set of wheels. When I look into lighter wheels ill look at getting a larger offset.

 

I made the decision early that I may have changes in the direction that I modified my suspension and wanted a bar that had the most adjustability. I opted for the Tarrett bar which has a large range of adjustability. It is a little pricey. Takeing into account that it can be installed by cutting out the old bar (standards can be replaced cheap in the market place) and not dropping the subframe it eliminates an alignment and it also comes with adjustable endlinks. Now I have a bar that will always fit my needs and I can eliminate any preload on the bar with the adjustable endlinks. If I were to do it again I would do the same thing.
Sometimes paying a little more in the beginning is cheaper in the end.
Steve

 

Since lower weight is a priority for track, could consider the I.E. 22 mm hollow bar,
which is equivalent to a 19-20 mm solid bar but lighter.

http://www.iemotorsport.com/bmw/MINI...swaybar22.html

 

A great wheel for the track is the Enkei PF01 or the RPF1. Both of these are 14 - 15 lbs for a 17" wheel and are not real expensive. I also like the open design of the spokes as it seems like it should promote brake cooling.

I would suggest one change at a time. Put in the RSB, see how the car runs and see how the tire wear is. With the camber plates and 38 mm wheels, my experience would say that you are about there, however on my car, it was still at the edge.

 

Pretty decent advice given so far but I suggest you go with a 22mm solid or equiv. 25mm hollow bar. You can start out at the softest setting until you get comfortable with it. My reasoning is that there is no sense in buying one bar to change it out later. I'm running a 22mm set full hard but then I've been instructing for over 30+ years

 

Just recognize that the 22mm RSB on the softest setting is about 50% stiffer than the 19 mm bar on the stiffest setting. The 19 mm bar on the stiffest setting is almost 80% stiffer than the stock bar. So the 22 mm RSB on the softest setting is still a big change.

 

so geometry-wise all of these bars are the same correct? I was looking at Whiteline for "quality," Madness for thoughtful design/performance, and maybe the hotchkis for "max" performance. I like that the madness has those stops for the bushings.

 

Forget those others and go with the Hsport Comp bar. You should not need stops on the bar, if you do something is wrong. We've had too many people using the Comp bar for 10+ years with no issue so it can't be beat.

 

Gotcha, interesting.. is this bar totally forged? ends aren't just welded on?

 

the Hsport is a one piece hollow bar with the ends pressed into shape, NO welding on ends

 

Thanks for the info and quick response - seems like it comes with everything I'd need from you guys. So this one is 5.5 lbs, I wonder how much the stock and other parts weigh?

 

Kyoo,

Are you thinking of adding negative camber to the front to complement the rear sway bar? You need a fair amount of negative front camber for track.