well, when ordering my car I was un-aware that the sport suspension upgraded the front sway bar, but now I see that the sport package jumped the front sway bar from 22.5mm to 23.5mm.

The only aftermarket bar I can find for the front is 27mm, which is WAY too stiff for me, this is a daily driver that will see the track once a month in the summer, at most.

My original plan was to go with a 22mm rear sway, because I'd rather have mild oversteer then understeer, but I'm concerned that with having the non-sport front sway, I'll have dangerous oversteer with a 22mm rear bar.

any comments on running a 22mm rear bar with the stock 22.5mm front?

 

If you get an adjustable bar, like an H-sport, you should be able to tune it pretty well to suit your needs.

I put a 22mm rear bar on my '03 MCS and set on the softest setting it was just right for the street but completely tamed the tendency for it to pick up the inside front tire and smoke it out of low speed corners on the track.

I'm now looking for one for my '09 Clubman.....

 

yea, well i've decided on the bar i want, if i go 22... nm-engineering (neuspeed). i like their cnc'd ends instead of welded ones, just one less thing to go wrong imo. welds are generally stronger then the material they're welding together, however when you weld, you heat up the surrounding material and change the grain size and shape, leaving it stronger, yet more brittle and susceptible to cracking.

i guess the 22 on softest for street will probably be alright. if it's not, I'll just go with the H&R or the Hotchkis front. I wish i knew the front sway was different with the sport suspension, i probably would have opted to get it...

 

Just an fyi for anyone else interested, I talked with the local motorsports shop that will be doing my track day checkups about it...

they said they recommend a 22mm bar if you plan on doing other suspension upgrades such as springs/shocks, front sway, strut tower bars, etc. they said that the 19 will play nicer with a completely stock suspension, but will be the weak link if you're upgrading everything...

since the plan is to have suspension done, completely this summer, I'll go with the 22.

 

My '09 MCS has non-sport suspension also, I plan to install the 18.5mm factory JCW rear bar, or perhaps a 19mm adjustable bar from one of the aftermarket vendors. I personally feel a 22mm rear bar is not required for a street driven car with the smaller front bar, but maybe a 22mm rear bar on the softest setting will be OK. My experience is drawn from an '04 Cooper, where I found changing the rear bar to an MCS bar (only 1mm larger) yielded a nice balanced result.

 

yea, i'd agree with you that a 22 isn't required for street with completely stock suspension. I'd go with the 19, because it's adjustable. The 18.5 bar is probably a great strength for optimal handling yet retaining a nice ride.

I'm going with 22 because when I put it on, I'm also dropping the car with some stiffer springs. In about a month, I'll be looking at getting some more suspension upgrades, my track time on May 21st will tell me what needs to come next. It may be front sway, may be front and rear strut tower bars, may be some urethane bushings (or alta psrs), I don't know yet. The goal is to have a trackable car.

22 on the softest for daily driving, 22 on the middle setting for track events, possibly moving up to the high setting if I get a front sway. Glad I got these new wheels now though, the very open spoke design will allow me to adjust without taking off the wheels!

 

22 (in spite of what others say) IMHO is massive overkill. I just did 2 days at Summit Point with my 08 and my thoughts are that adjustable camber is a much better 1st step than any rear sway bar.

 

You will add quite a lot of more oversteer with the 22.5 mm front and 22 mm rear combo (stock rear is 16mm). It is the relative size difference (front vs back) that counts in introducing the oversteer.

Too much oversteer on the track is a scary thing.

You can go with 19 mm rear and introduce some more oversteer in other ways as well, such as greater tire pressure in the back, stiffer shocks in the back etc.

 

i get that. that's the reason i made the post. I was wondering if anyone has done it.

I will be upgrading well more then just adding a rear sway, which is the reason I don't want a 19mm bar. I just can't afford it all at once.

the difference between the stock 22.5mm and 23.5mm front bar can't be that big. i'm guessing 25% stiffer at most. People with the 23.5 with springs seem to like the 22 on medium settings, so I'll run at the softest setting, until I can afford to get the h-sport front sway, or maybe even the stock sport front sway.

I'm also dropping the car at the same time, so I'll have a bit of added camber that I'll be driving with for a few weeks, until the rear control arms come.

 

well....


got the springs and rear sway bar installed.

Very glad I got the 22mm rear bar. I put it on the middle setting and will be keeping it there all summer, but I will be putting it on the lowest setting come winter (lots of rain and snow). The change in steering has been dramatic. I think I like the soft front bar in conjunction with the large rear. No more understeer, and I haven't noted any oversteer either.. It really feels like it's on rails now. Take a turn, and instead of feeling the car roll a bit, yet still grip, it just sticks to the road and turns like it's on rails. I may be putting it on the stiffest setting for some auto-x soon.

I do think a 19mm bar would probably be appropriate for someone who wants some better turn-in, yet doesn't want the ability to create oversteer, but I am very happy with my decision, wouldn't change a thing.

 

Ok... under a deliberate oversteer

I am use to rear wheel drives where by trail braking you can get the rear to kick out in the turn and then hit the power.

In the FWD Mini, is the physics generally the same in that the oversteer will get the car turned into the end of the corner better but you just power out with the front?

So by going with the 22mm can you feel and control the oversteer or does it behave like it is riding on ice? I want to be able to control the over steer under normal performance conditions without out it being too slippery.

 

i haven't gotten to that point yet... I've thrown it around a little, but not enough to learn to control it yet. So far though, it's pretty predictable. Hard turn, off the gas, you can feel the rear want to come around, power out, and the back goes right back to where it should be...

Maybe someone with some more track experience and a 22mm bar could chime in...

 

I also have a Cooper S with a non sport suspension and am interesting in getting the ride quality of the sports suspension. Could you PM me or link me to the different specs of the two setups? I understand that the sports option upgraded the suspension and sways (along with rims), just want to know the exact specs.

 

realoem.com

gotta sort through and pick the right suspension parts, but they tell you the diameters of the swaybars and all.

 

I installed the 22mm Alta sway bar and currently have it on the softest setting. It has definitely tightened things up. I went out to a vacant parking lot to try a trail break oversteer maneuver and was not able to kick the back end out. I still got understeer but the car was very firm. It might be that I wasn't going fast enough for the oversteer. I like the 22mm and may move the setting to a stiffer position. I also have Alta lover control arms and H&R RSS coilovers.

 

I had the sport suspension, which I believe uses a 23mm front sway and 18mm rear sway (base is 22/17 and JCW is 23.5/18.5). Maybe they changed it since 07 since you folks have found slightly different numbers. With a 22mm rear sway on now in the softest setting understeer is still prevalent. The rear sway doesn't solve this, it just can introduce oversteer to compensate but isn't the right way to solve understeer. Stiffening the rear sway just before the point at which it takes the weight off of the inside tire and induces oversteer is generally ideal. The rear sway does wonders for body roll though, which always feels great in corning. Camber plates would help with understeer much more. Driver skill is the most important factor with all control issues though ... followed by tires and the presence of traffic law enforcement.

Of course we're just talking about autocross and track driving, right?

 

FYI- I saw you refer to the Hsport and H&R front swaybars. Those bars are ONLY for the R50/53 MINI's, they do NOT fit the R56. The R56 has a different front swaybar. So save your money it won't fit.

As for the 19mm-22mm choice. Good luck, this is one thing that is really customer dependant. I've been selling these bars for yrs and every customer is different and just because one guy likes a 19mm doesn't mean you will and the oposite is true too, if you like a 22mm doesn't mean it will work for someone else. It all comes down to driver and how "loose" you want the rear to be. Looser go 22mm, looser than stock, but not "real" loose go 19mm.

 

You could buy the front sport sway bar separately if you'd like. It will be much cheaper.
Just get the PN here http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...78&hg=31&fg=10

and the punch the PN into bavarian autosports website.

I think I am going to do that for the rear on mine. It's half the price of aftermarket (yes I know it's smaller). And get fixed camber plates up front.

 

i believe the front swaybar is a pita to install. i'm sure it's pretty expensive if you paid someone too.

 

I've been deciding on a rear sway bar as well..... but looking at your post here.... what about for someone who breaks the rear tires free just on their daily commutes to work each day? (Tires are already upgraded)
I autoX, but just once a month, and 4 minutes of driving then will not influence my purchases.... so my purchase would be based on daily "spirited" driving.

 

I installed the 22mm Alta and I would have to say that if you are looking at spirited daily driving the 22s are great. I did some performance training on rear wheel drives and the 22s will allow you to kick the rear end out on a car that normally doesn't do that. So you can turn your understeering mini into an oversteering mini-racer.

I mean it is not like you are on ice or anything. You have to basically do it on purpose. But I can do higher speed hard break (trail-braking) turns into everyday intersections or corners and get the back end to drift out to assist in aiming toward the apex like a rear-wheel or mid-engine drive will do. Is that what you want for spirited daily driving? So I guess if you want to turn your daily commute roads into a spirited racetrack go ahead and get the 22s.

 

Thanks for the input....
I have a very windy back road I get the luxury of driving to work on everyday, so I am always pushing myself to drive the turns as fast as possible. There is definitely understeer.

BTW- nice looking MINI

 

doing some more upgrading here in the next day or so... I got the NM engineering rear swaybar end links. It should put the end links and the swaybar back into the correct geometry... I've also been thinking I might get the car corner weighted too to get rid of pre-loading now.

I'll have a review of the install, and any perceived benefits, but so far the parts look awesome.

 

I asked the same question (non-sport front bar with 22mm rear bar) to the guys at NM Engineering and here was their reply.

"During our extensive R&D, we tested bars ranging in size from 19mm thru
25mm. 19mm just was not enough to counteract understeer in the MINI. 22mm
was the "sweet spot" as it gets the vehicle to be very neutral. For your
described needs, our rear bar will be a welcome addition on your Clubman.

I hope this helps to answer your concerns adequately."

They seem to know their stuff. I will be getting their bar and springs ASAP.

 

you'll love em...