I was flipping through an older issue of MC2 and started to read how lowering a MINI is mainly done for looks. They went to say that the lower CoG does help but the detriments outweigh the pros because of the screwed up scrub radius and there is excessive rear camber gain (which could be solved I know). My question is, is it worth it to lower a street driven car? I'd like to do a NASA day maybe next year when funds are a little more plentiful but not now.

 

I read the article also but I got the impression they were talking about extreme lowering where you have very little suspension travel. Then again I could be wrong as I have been before.

 

i was thinking about getting some m7 or h-sport? springs.
but after hearing you say that.

 

Yeah, it's really mostly an appearance thing for a street car. You don't need to lower a MINI to get better handling, and any handling improvement by lowering alone will be negligable. You can do moderate lowering without really getting into trouble with stuff, but the combination of changed angles and the added stress of the stiffer springs, you may see increased wear of things like bushings, bearings, strut mounts and front axles. Dropping your car an inch or less is pretty much not going to be a problem. Heck, with MINIs, that would seem to fall within build tolerances.

I'd say that if you want to lower your car for appearance's sake, go for it, but don't go nuts (unless, of course, you want to go nuts, and are ok with the trade-off in ride quality and/or more frequent maintenance). If you want improved handling, but don't feel the need to lower it, you can get stiffer stock-height springs (TSW), different struts, sway bars, etc.

 

^I like the second paragraph of your post, with the suggestion of TSW spring, diff. struts and sway bars.

 

I have my car moderately lowered on Bilstein PSS9's and use camber plates and rear control arms. The ride is better than stock and handling is leagues above stock. I agree that too low is for looks alone....my car was lower with a Koni Sport Kit installed and the new setup is better in every way (not related solely to height obviously, but ride Q improved with more available travel).

 

I like the H-Sports on my MCS a lot now. When they were first installed, I didn't think the car dropped enough, but have since gotten a lot of nice compliments that it's juuust right. The ride IS better, and when I park it next to my MC with the '06 springs, while there IS a drop, it's not bad at all.

 

Lowering the center of gravity is the single best thing one can do for handling, period. But, reusing a cliche, there ain't no free lunch.

This will not be one of my typical long winded thingys. You have to understand how roll centers and instantaneous centers work. Roll centers have a relationship with the center of gravity...they help weight transfer or hurt it. Instant centers define the suspension's virtual swing arm and in doing so determine camber compensation. The reason these two are important is because weight transfer affects grip and driver control, and camber compensation determines where the tire's optimal contact patch is at critical cornering attitudes.

The probelm here, in my opinion, is not so much with lowering the mini as it is with the huge volume of crap available for this car. There simply are not a lot of well thought out spring and damping kits for this car. So, even if one gets the geometry spot on, a poor set of dampers, or bumpstops, or springs will screw it all up.

I think it is far more important to use a high quality spring and damping kit than it is to lower the mini. These components can either spook a driver or make he or she feel like God.

In the end it is a very complicated task setting up a car. I unfortunately spent way too much money and way too much time working around bad design.

I would certainly consider: JCW, CROSS, Dinan, PSS9, and perhaps Megan for the street and a few track events a year. PSS9 is a progressive kit with rebound adjustability. JCW is made for the car, nuff said here. CROSS come with a bullet proof camber perch/pillow ball with custom spring rates and are rebound adjustable. Dinan inlcude custom valved rebound adjustable Koni dampers mated specifically to their springs. I've not driven the dinan kit, but Dr Obnox says it is wonderful.

 

no. Dinan uses standard off the shelf Koni yellows set to their specs (which you can easily replicate on Koni's bought over the counter) and their own springs. So sayeth my product development guy at Koni and every vendor I've talked with who sells Dinan and Koni both.

 

The question is a good one, and has been the focus of discussion on NAM for a couple of years, now. Meb has summarized the consensus well. Lowering MINI is a chancy proposition that depends on the performance level that one is pursuing, the level that one can afford, and one's ability to tune. Appearance is a prime driver for lowering MINI's and results in an immediate appearance improvement. Improved track performance isn't quite so certain and takes a fair amount of chassis and suspension tuning to realize the gains that come from the lowered center of gravity.

My primary driving interest is track oriented, although my MINI is a dual purpose car. I have seen a number of stock ride height MINI's driven by competent drivers simply kick butt on the track. I've seen a number of cool lowered MINI's perform poorly on the track, even in the hands of reasonably competent drivers. I believe that more performance potential has been lost by lowering MINI's than has been gained.

My MINI has been lowered about 3/4", maximum. I have made major increases in my spring rates, installed single adjustable struts, made corrections to the front roll centers and have made a bump steer correction as well. The rear end required adjustable control arms and I'm not sure that I have adequately delt with the altered rear roll centers. More changes to think about.

If I had to do it again I would think long and hard about what I would lose on the track by lowering MINI. If appearance and "normal" street performance were my goals, I'd lower the car and enjoy motoring.

John Petrich in Sammamish

 

This is why I went with the TSW springs, minimal drop with noticable gains.

 

Maybe my opinion may not sway you but having traveled the miles (66,000miles) to get where I like to be with my setup, I am very happy to have arrived!!!

 

PGT, set to their specs means custom valved...I did not mean to infer Dinan custom valaves their Konis to to meet the needs of individual set ups. They are valved to work with their springs, according to my info. To me, that means custom valved, but certainly not on a per individual basis. Sorry if that was misleading, I'm old!

Replicating their valving would require knowing their spring rates...unless they work with Truechoice, there is no other approved Koni revalving company I know of. I think the actual phrase used was proprietary valving??? So I don't know how anyone would be able to replicate this valving.

That is all I have...but the Koni yellows that come with the Dinan kit are not garden variety. If you can get more info, that would be great

 

...wheel offset can be used to fine tune roll center and instant center locations...a very interesting area of tuning I might add...

 

no....but they are! Koni sends Dinan off the shelf, garden variety yellows and Dinan turns the ***** for you before shipping. I was working with the product development guy there on some Subaru stuff and we had that specific conversation about Dinan's kit. Victor at MINI Works confirmed.

I ended up with the Koni Sport Kit on my car and I think Dinan is using very soft springs in comparison.....my car was set at about 1.5 turns front and 1 turn rear and was still a bit bouncy. Dinan recommends full soft in the rear and a half turn in the front to match their springs.

 

IMO if you are lowering just for looks, do whatever you want to get it there. If you want the lowered look with better handling, change the sway bars, links, control arms, and install front camber plates and quality coilovers (corner balanced). Then you can adjust the height to what floats your boat and get the handling of a slot car all in one.

 

So, does anyone make a spring that will lower the car, say 1/2-3/4 of an inch? Maybe just enough to kill that wheel gap and still retain some ride quality and f-up the attitude of the car under speed? Is this why I've been hearing such good things about TSW springs? As stated above, a very modest drop to eliminate gap but also to gain better manners in a turn.

 

i lowered my car a little bit for appearance, no question about that. it's a
street driven car so appearance is important.

but lowering it too far will run you into problems as again, this is a street
driven car and on the street, there are many bumps, humps, dips, and
pot holes.

 

You won't "kill" the wheel gap with 1/2 or 3/4. I ran H-sports for a year and a half (1 inch drop) and now I'm running M7 springs (1 and 1/3rd drop) and still want a bit more drop up front. I like the look and feel myself, Both will most likely satisfy your "wheel gap" issues and certanly will make the car ride better and handle better (IMO). I plan on going with coil overs (wife permiting) some day to acheive the "perfect drop". You might want to look into the springs that Texas Speed work sell's if you want to stay under an inch. I believe they lower about 3/4 but are Linear springs where the H-sports and M7 springs are Progressive rate springs.

 

Interesting. That's a wee bit of a disappointment, but at some level not surprising given my experiences with mini stuff. The only conviction in my writing came from a conversation with Dr Obnox...and perhaps an article in MC2 magazine that he wrote.

'Adjusting' rebound is not something I would personally use in my marketing since most of us prefer to tinker with those adjustments...and change these settings between road and track.

But thank you for the clarification...I'm still a wee bit baffled by the marketing...but maybe that is the goal at some level.

 

on the strut valving.....

But on lowering, this is a question that always comes up. I like John's comment that more harm has probably been done by lowering than improvments made.... That said, everything suspensions is a hack of compramise. If you have smooth streets, you can get away with more. If you have stiffer springs, you can get away with more..

The biggest issue is that the Mini has little suspension travel, and lowering makes it even worse on our undermaintained roads....

If you lower a lot, progressive rate springs may not be a good bet. You'll want stiffer linear rate springs to stay off the stops.

Anyway, when this is convolved with looks for the street, there's even less "right" than just looking for handling! So have at it!

Matt

ps, I'm running about a 3/4" drop with my car.

 

I'm back to stock ride height FWIW

 

and i bet your car handles better.

 

Another variable is load, no?

Because I routinely drive around with approx. 700lbs of passengers and cargo... I suspect the right answer for me will be a bit different than those who only haul their 150lb sopping wet selves and their waif gurlfriends...

And I do this on all kinds of roads, good, bad, straight and extremely twisty... only consistent element is FAST...

 

yah, but i like to admire my car when it's parked too... no sense
making it look all nice if you can't see it yourself.

my mom (long time ago) asked why i was making the car look all nice
when i can't see it while driving. lol!