Clutch issues and bloody knuckles
#1
02-21-2016, 09:53 PM
Clutch issues and bloody knuckles
So, I thought I'd regale you all with short, sad, story of woe, busted knuckles and bathing in brake fluid. Yes, we're talking about clutch issues.
In the beginning, my '07 Cooper S was pretty much stock. The clutch worked fine, but always bothered me, as it made a regular knocking sound when in neutral. The dealer assured me that it was fairly normal for the dual-mass flywheels to do just that, so I wrote it off as another MINI idiosyncrasy, and dealt with it in my own way...by upgrading the stereo system. Loud music = quiet clutch.
5 years, and 60-odd thousand miles, later, the throwout bearing started squealing and the stock clutch started slipping pretty badly. As it seemed it was now time to tackle a fairly sizable repair, I thought (as a treat to myself) an upgrade was in order. There weren't a ton of options available at that time. Better stock clutches were out there, but I'd still have to listen to that dual-mass clacking. No, no, a thousand times, NO! OS Giken kits were awesome, but prohibitively expensive. A few no-name kits existed, but of questionable quality. Then I found Clutch Masters. They have several nice kits that use Sachs discs and pressure plates, combined with their own Aluminum or Steel flywheels (and no, I don't work for them). Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
You may be asking yourself, this all sounds fairly normal, where does the misery begin? Let me continue.
I ordered their FX250 kit with the Aluminum flywheel. It was actually a very nice clutch. The flywheel has a replaceable steel insert and the quality is very good. I proceeded to rip apart the car and make the swap. Everything inside looked good, except that the throwout bearing had disintegrated and galled the stock clutch pretty bad. With this revelation, I felt better about my $1000+ purchase. Everything else inside looked pretty good. I did due diligence and replaced the rear oil seal while I was in there, and the rest of the repair went as expected. On the first few drives though, the clutch seemed to stutter and skip pretty badly. I re-bled the system several times, but it didn't get better. I thought - for sure - that I must have air in the line somewhere. I went through every posted bleeding procedure I could find, from manually pumping, to vacuum, to pressure, and combinations of all three as well. Nothing improved the problem. Crap. Is it me? Is this what an aftermarket MINI clutch feels like?!!
Now, keep in mind, I've done all my own automotive work since my first car in the 80's. Can't tell you how many clutches I've replaced, but I've never had this many problems. Logic kicked back in, and I tried to diagnose what was going on. I pulled the slave cylinder back out, compressed it, and put some mild pressure on the pedal. Squirt. WTF?! Tried it again. Squirt. Yup, the slave cylinder had a bum seal. After futilely trying to look inside the bell housing to see what was going on inside (you can't by the way), I resolved to pull it all back apart. Groan. Car torn apart - AGAIN - and lo and behold, I'm looking at an absolute mess. It seems that the seal ruptured and blew brake fluid all over my brand new, fairly expensive, clutch kit. Yay. The metal wear surfaces were heat damaged from the slipping and the organic disc was coated in fluid.
What to do now?
I had two options. Buy another clutch kit, or clean everything up as best as possible, reassemble, and hope for the best. Being on a fixed budget, and having just blown over a grand on a shiny new clutch kit, you can probably guess I went for the later. I cleaned everything up with a non-residue brake cleaner, baked the disc in an oven to fully dry the residual solvent out, scuffed the flywheel and pressure plates to remove the mild glazing, and reassembled the whole mess. Of course, I had no idea if it would work until it was all back together, but since this was free labor, I figured, what the heck.
Now things get fun.
I tried a second round of bleeding, with my brand-spanking-new slave cylinder, and got...nothing. Nope, nothing worked. I went through all the bleeding techniques, again, and got nada. I even made sure to keep the pressure and vacuum bleeding under 14psi, to keep from blowing the seals, but nothing did the trick. I looked at the master cylinder as the only remaining culprit, but couldn't see any visible fluid leaks. That meant that the only thing left was an internal master cylinder leak, ie. blown seal. Sounds familiar, right?
I ordered a replacement master from my local parts store and was overjoyed to find it was made of metal, instead of the stock plastic. I have an old-fashioned aversion to plastic parts and their tendency to break at the most inopportune times. This is where I made a (knuckle) blood sacrifice to the gods above to curse whatever designer was in charge of that master cylinder assembly. I, like many others that walk this earth, do not have the hands of a three-year-old. Could it hurt you to move things around by a half an inch here and there so wrenches and fingers can get where they belong? Oh, and despite draining the reservoir completely, a small river of brake fluid will quickly rain down on your head (and bleeding knuckles) when you are lying on the driver's floor and disconnect the master cylinder. Fun times.
So, clean clutch, new slave cylinder, new master cylinder, and lo and behold, a system that actually bleeds correctly later, and I'm out for my first real test drive. Cross your finger and hope for the best, right?
Nope.
Alas, that was not fated to be. I put the key in, but the car wouldn't start. Seems that lovely metal master cylinder blocks the signal to the clutch position sensor, so the car can't see that you're pushing it in. Grrrrr. I angrily snapped the sensor back onto the broken master and temporarily zip-tied the whole thing up under the dash. Ok, so now it starts, but the clutch won't grab. Really?
The parts I so diligently cleaned and reassembled were either too far gone, or had fluid soaked too deeply to be salvaged. The pedal system seems to work right, finally, but the clutch slips. I put some miles on it, hoping that the surfaces needed to mate up again, or that maybe some latent residue would burn off, but that didn't happen. It slips like it was it's job to slip.
Sigh. As of today, I have now bit the final bullet. I contacted Clutch Masters and got a very nice guy named Alex (though I suppose it could have been a girl...damn you Alexes, Jamies, and Erinns of the world!). I ordered a new wear plate for the flywheel, and a new FX100 clutch kit. Why the 100 instead of the 250? I need something that will be easier in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic, and I think I was reaching a bit when I originally went with the FX250. My car is bone stock and I went with the FX100 to be done with it. They even matched the price I found online, which was extremely nice of them. I expect it should arrive in a week or so and will be replacing the clutch for, you guessed it, the third time!!!
The moral of my story for anyone replacing their clutch is this:
Pay someone else to do it!
If you are crazy enough to do it yourself to try and save money, don't. I mean, still do it yourself, by all means, but don't try and save money. You won't. When replacing the clutch replace everything. Put in new seals, guide tubes, master and slave cylinders, basically everything you can replace...don't ask, just replace it. The alternative is that you will get very, very good at dissembling your Mini Cooper, but very quickly grow a fierce and determined hatred for it as well. All remaining ownership joy you may possess will be sucked from your soul and trading it in "As-Is" will start to sound pretty good. I'm not through with mine yet and am hopeful that when the new kit arrives, I will be a happy camper yet again.
I certainly hope that someone out there will benefit from my trials and tribulations, in some small way. Have fun working on your car!
PS. If anyone has questions on taking apart their clutch, just ask me. It took me 6 days the first time because I had never done it before. 3 days the second because I was familiar with the process. And only 10 hours the third time, because there are a bunch of steps you don't have to do at all. Go figure.
In the beginning, my '07 Cooper S was pretty much stock. The clutch worked fine, but always bothered me, as it made a regular knocking sound when in neutral. The dealer assured me that it was fairly normal for the dual-mass flywheels to do just that, so I wrote it off as another MINI idiosyncrasy, and dealt with it in my own way...by upgrading the stereo system. Loud music = quiet clutch.
5 years, and 60-odd thousand miles, later, the throwout bearing started squealing and the stock clutch started slipping pretty badly. As it seemed it was now time to tackle a fairly sizable repair, I thought (as a treat to myself) an upgrade was in order. There weren't a ton of options available at that time. Better stock clutches were out there, but I'd still have to listen to that dual-mass clacking. No, no, a thousand times, NO! OS Giken kits were awesome, but prohibitively expensive. A few no-name kits existed, but of questionable quality. Then I found Clutch Masters. They have several nice kits that use Sachs discs and pressure plates, combined with their own Aluminum or Steel flywheels (and no, I don't work for them). Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
You may be asking yourself, this all sounds fairly normal, where does the misery begin? Let me continue.
I ordered their FX250 kit with the Aluminum flywheel. It was actually a very nice clutch. The flywheel has a replaceable steel insert and the quality is very good. I proceeded to rip apart the car and make the swap. Everything inside looked good, except that the throwout bearing had disintegrated and galled the stock clutch pretty bad. With this revelation, I felt better about my $1000+ purchase. Everything else inside looked pretty good. I did due diligence and replaced the rear oil seal while I was in there, and the rest of the repair went as expected. On the first few drives though, the clutch seemed to stutter and skip pretty badly. I re-bled the system several times, but it didn't get better. I thought - for sure - that I must have air in the line somewhere. I went through every posted bleeding procedure I could find, from manually pumping, to vacuum, to pressure, and combinations of all three as well. Nothing improved the problem. Crap. Is it me? Is this what an aftermarket MINI clutch feels like?!!
Now, keep in mind, I've done all my own automotive work since my first car in the 80's. Can't tell you how many clutches I've replaced, but I've never had this many problems. Logic kicked back in, and I tried to diagnose what was going on. I pulled the slave cylinder back out, compressed it, and put some mild pressure on the pedal. Squirt. WTF?! Tried it again. Squirt. Yup, the slave cylinder had a bum seal. After futilely trying to look inside the bell housing to see what was going on inside (you can't by the way), I resolved to pull it all back apart. Groan. Car torn apart - AGAIN - and lo and behold, I'm looking at an absolute mess. It seems that the seal ruptured and blew brake fluid all over my brand new, fairly expensive, clutch kit. Yay. The metal wear surfaces were heat damaged from the slipping and the organic disc was coated in fluid.
What to do now?
I had two options. Buy another clutch kit, or clean everything up as best as possible, reassemble, and hope for the best. Being on a fixed budget, and having just blown over a grand on a shiny new clutch kit, you can probably guess I went for the later. I cleaned everything up with a non-residue brake cleaner, baked the disc in an oven to fully dry the residual solvent out, scuffed the flywheel and pressure plates to remove the mild glazing, and reassembled the whole mess. Of course, I had no idea if it would work until it was all back together, but since this was free labor, I figured, what the heck.
Now things get fun.
I tried a second round of bleeding, with my brand-spanking-new slave cylinder, and got...nothing. Nope, nothing worked. I went through all the bleeding techniques, again, and got nada. I even made sure to keep the pressure and vacuum bleeding under 14psi, to keep from blowing the seals, but nothing did the trick. I looked at the master cylinder as the only remaining culprit, but couldn't see any visible fluid leaks. That meant that the only thing left was an internal master cylinder leak, ie. blown seal. Sounds familiar, right?
I ordered a replacement master from my local parts store and was overjoyed to find it was made of metal, instead of the stock plastic. I have an old-fashioned aversion to plastic parts and their tendency to break at the most inopportune times. This is where I made a (knuckle) blood sacrifice to the gods above to curse whatever designer was in charge of that master cylinder assembly. I, like many others that walk this earth, do not have the hands of a three-year-old. Could it hurt you to move things around by a half an inch here and there so wrenches and fingers can get where they belong? Oh, and despite draining the reservoir completely, a small river of brake fluid will quickly rain down on your head (and bleeding knuckles) when you are lying on the driver's floor and disconnect the master cylinder. Fun times.
So, clean clutch, new slave cylinder, new master cylinder, and lo and behold, a system that actually bleeds correctly later, and I'm out for my first real test drive. Cross your finger and hope for the best, right?
Nope.
Alas, that was not fated to be. I put the key in, but the car wouldn't start. Seems that lovely metal master cylinder blocks the signal to the clutch position sensor, so the car can't see that you're pushing it in. Grrrrr. I angrily snapped the sensor back onto the broken master and temporarily zip-tied the whole thing up under the dash. Ok, so now it starts, but the clutch won't grab. Really?
The parts I so diligently cleaned and reassembled were either too far gone, or had fluid soaked too deeply to be salvaged. The pedal system seems to work right, finally, but the clutch slips. I put some miles on it, hoping that the surfaces needed to mate up again, or that maybe some latent residue would burn off, but that didn't happen. It slips like it was it's job to slip.
Sigh. As of today, I have now bit the final bullet. I contacted Clutch Masters and got a very nice guy named Alex (though I suppose it could have been a girl...damn you Alexes, Jamies, and Erinns of the world!). I ordered a new wear plate for the flywheel, and a new FX100 clutch kit. Why the 100 instead of the 250? I need something that will be easier in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic, and I think I was reaching a bit when I originally went with the FX250. My car is bone stock and I went with the FX100 to be done with it. They even matched the price I found online, which was extremely nice of them. I expect it should arrive in a week or so and will be replacing the clutch for, you guessed it, the third time!!!
The moral of my story for anyone replacing their clutch is this:
Pay someone else to do it!
If you are crazy enough to do it yourself to try and save money, don't. I mean, still do it yourself, by all means, but don't try and save money. You won't. When replacing the clutch replace everything. Put in new seals, guide tubes, master and slave cylinders, basically everything you can replace...don't ask, just replace it. The alternative is that you will get very, very good at dissembling your Mini Cooper, but very quickly grow a fierce and determined hatred for it as well. All remaining ownership joy you may possess will be sucked from your soul and trading it in "As-Is" will start to sound pretty good. I'm not through with mine yet and am hopeful that when the new kit arrives, I will be a happy camper yet again.
I certainly hope that someone out there will benefit from my trials and tribulations, in some small way. Have fun working on your car!
PS. If anyone has questions on taking apart their clutch, just ask me. It took me 6 days the first time because I had never done it before. 3 days the second because I was familiar with the process. And only 10 hours the third time, because there are a bunch of steps you don't have to do at all. Go figure.
#3
06-10-2016, 07:55 PM
#4
06-10-2016, 09:18 PM
Follow up: the new FX100 is working brilliantly!!! Highly recommended. Also, be sure the master cylinder is plastic. I replaced mine in the end and it's beautiful.
Thanks for the commiseration guys!
#6
07-02-2016, 07:45 PM
2nd Gear
I'm replacing my clutch in a 2008 Clubman S, and I started from the opposite end of the troubleshooting spectrum. Thankfully, my car's clutch died in my driveway after coming home from work, which made things relatively simple. I started by replacing the clutch master cylinder position switch ($42). That didn't help at all. Then, I went about replacing the master & slave cylinders ($106). Spent over a week trying to sort out the bleeding issue bit by bit. Bought pressure bleeder to help ($50). Still nothing. Finally gave up after 4 weeks in, and towed it to a local indy European specialist shop. ($50 for the estimate). His diagnosis: fried clutch, throwout bearing, $2600 to repair. Towed the car back home on 5 June ($65).
Spent a week disassembling virtually the entire front end of the car. Finally got the transmission out last Sunday, found out that it's definitely a deep-fried clutch. Friction disk wore down past the rivets, gouging the DM flywheel. Clutch fork arm was fractured nearly in half at the throwout bearing; clutch pressure pin decapitated. Clutch pressure plate gouged by the clutch fork arm when it cracked. The only two components which were still in "good" shape were the throwout bearing and the guide tube. Everything else was shot. Got stock replacement components all and well, and had cleaned up the transmission bellhousing from the huge amount of dust. Started putting the new thrust bearing into the new shift arm, and sure enough, one of the plastic locking tabs snapped off, rendering it completely useless. It just pops out of the clutch arm after one movement. Absolute show-stopper; now, I have to make a warranty claim to Valeo and get a new thrust bearing.
Thoroughly frustrated, but trying to salvage the rest of this holiday weekend, I tried to finish up the side-task of replacing the coolant hoses. Looking to preempt a difficult repair in the future, I decided that I might as well put in a Mishimoto silicone kit when I found the state of the clutch, since all of them are very difficult to get out once everything is put together. I started this a few days prior, and most of the hoses went in without much of a fuss, but just as I was getting the last hose in today - (smallest of all) - which connects between the turbo and the thermostat, the plastic nipple of the thermostat snapped off into the tube and crumbled into bits while I was threading the hose over it. [Arcade sounds] Game over.
Broken throwout bearing, and now a broken thermostat. Took 30 minutes to pull it out, although it never seemed to stop leaking coolant, even from the new lines. This is my first time attempting such a huge job on a car, and I said to myself that I'll probably not do this again on a daily driver without a backup. I'm in for $1,350 just in parts and the special tools I had to buy to accomplish the task, thus saving $1000 off the shop. However, I've been without the car since April - my Honda motorcycle has been carrying the baton ever since.
I really hope I do not have to disassemble the car again for any reason whatsoever, but I feel your pain. I've good mechanical skills and a plethora of tools, but not a whole lot of free time, unpleasant wet/hot Florida weather, and must keep costs in check.
A clutch is definitely not for the faint-hearted!!
Spent a week disassembling virtually the entire front end of the car. Finally got the transmission out last Sunday, found out that it's definitely a deep-fried clutch. Friction disk wore down past the rivets, gouging the DM flywheel. Clutch fork arm was fractured nearly in half at the throwout bearing; clutch pressure pin decapitated. Clutch pressure plate gouged by the clutch fork arm when it cracked. The only two components which were still in "good" shape were the throwout bearing and the guide tube. Everything else was shot. Got stock replacement components all and well, and had cleaned up the transmission bellhousing from the huge amount of dust. Started putting the new thrust bearing into the new shift arm, and sure enough, one of the plastic locking tabs snapped off, rendering it completely useless. It just pops out of the clutch arm after one movement. Absolute show-stopper; now, I have to make a warranty claim to Valeo and get a new thrust bearing.
Thoroughly frustrated, but trying to salvage the rest of this holiday weekend, I tried to finish up the side-task of replacing the coolant hoses. Looking to preempt a difficult repair in the future, I decided that I might as well put in a Mishimoto silicone kit when I found the state of the clutch, since all of them are very difficult to get out once everything is put together. I started this a few days prior, and most of the hoses went in without much of a fuss, but just as I was getting the last hose in today - (smallest of all) - which connects between the turbo and the thermostat, the plastic nipple of the thermostat snapped off into the tube and crumbled into bits while I was threading the hose over it. [Arcade sounds] Game over.
Broken throwout bearing, and now a broken thermostat. Took 30 minutes to pull it out, although it never seemed to stop leaking coolant, even from the new lines. This is my first time attempting such a huge job on a car, and I said to myself that I'll probably not do this again on a daily driver without a backup. I'm in for $1,350 just in parts and the special tools I had to buy to accomplish the task, thus saving $1000 off the shop. However, I've been without the car since April - my Honda motorcycle has been carrying the baton ever since.
I really hope I do not have to disassemble the car again for any reason whatsoever, but I feel your pain. I've good mechanical skills and a plethora of tools, but not a whole lot of free time, unpleasant wet/hot Florida weather, and must keep costs in check.
A clutch is definitely not for the faint-hearted!!
#7
07-02-2016, 07:55 PM
2nd Gear
I think if I had to disassemble the car again, it would be much faster than before, simply because I wouldn't have to contend with seized or stripped out bolts, spend time taking pictures so that I don't forget how everything originally was, or referring back to the manual to see how to take something apart. I also have all of the parts, and all of the tools at this point.
FYI: I did not care much for all of those E-Torx bolts in and on the transmission...so anyone thinking of attempting a task like this would be well-advised to get this! https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-26280-T.../dp/B0002NYBVO
FYI: I did not care much for all of those E-Torx bolts in and on the transmission...so anyone thinking of attempting a task like this would be well-advised to get this! https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-26280-T.../dp/B0002NYBVO
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#8
07-04-2016, 08:33 PM
I have done many FWD clutches in my lifetime, not by choice, mind you, but it was my job as a mechanic. I always hated FWD clutch jobs! Always got them done, with 80% success rate. Sometimes, there were leaks from the master or slave when I was done (that would be the other 20%), lesson learned. But, geez, this MINI clutch job sounds intolerable! I will start saving money NOW, and pay a MINI-experienced shop to do it, just for my own sanity, when the time comes. Thanks for the heads-up, guys. Your suffering is not un-noticed. On the plus side, Motor On!
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