Clutch Issues and Mini USA Making me Pay $$$
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3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 252
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From: Bethesda, MD / Washington, DC
The other day, I jumped in my mini to get something to eat. When I started it, I noticed the clutch was real loose. I started the car, attempted to put the car into 1st, and couldn't. The clutch stopped working. I could shift, just had to force it. The clutch just seemed SO loose. So, I manage to get it to the dealer in Annapolis, MD (Tate Mini). I had a list of problem already, so I just left there (my mini is my 2nd car). The gentleman finally calls me yesterday (monday), after I had dropped the car off on thursday of last week. He starts by telling me, the aftermarket parts are voiding my warranty. I was like, what? He says, to even get into the tranny (remember, the clutch is not functioning correctly), all my stuff needs to be romoved, and that's $500. $500! The only actual performance mods I have, are an intake, exhaust, plasma booster, and ignition coil (I have some lights, but nothing to get all worked up over). He tells me, Mini USA wants ME to pay for a new clutch, if the aftermarket parts affected it. Wait, do my parts really affect it? i THINK NOT. So, I said work on it, because I'm confident that it might be just a spring, or a cable loose (remember the early recall?). The funny part is, all of these mods were on the car last time i took it to mini to get it service, and the check engine light to be checked, and i never paid a dime. The car was purchased in 03/02, was built in 02/02, has a lil under 13K miles, and had the tranny replaced at 3,000 miles.
whatcha guys think?
=Danny=
whatcha guys think?
=Danny=
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,293
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From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Sounds like they should pay for it if it is defective. If it is wear and tear from driving, the 10k miles since the new tranny went in, you may have to pony up. Too close to call without seeing it. But if you've done nothing to the engine itself, there should be no voiding of the warranty on the drivetrain.
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 393
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From: Houston
If in fact that your upgrades to your car did cause your clutch to fail then they have to prove it under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. I would suggest that you print the
Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act
US Code - Title 15, Chapter 50, Sections 2301-2312
http://www.seniormag.com/legal/lemon...gnusonmoss.htm
So if the products you did install made you clutch fail then they will have to prove it!
So don't pay and print the out...........and tell them......even show them the MMWA......They just want your money !!!!
Hope it helps..Tell us how it goes.
tony
p.s. wear and tear on a 10k tranny that fails I never heard of that unless you race your car like a MAD-MAN? mmm...........it's not suppose to do that within 10k.........that should be covered under warranty!!!
Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act
US Code - Title 15, Chapter 50, Sections 2301-2312
http://www.seniormag.com/legal/lemon...gnusonmoss.htm
So if the products you did install made you clutch fail then they will have to prove it!
So don't pay and print the out...........and tell them......even show them the MMWA......They just want your money !!!!
Hope it helps..Tell us how it goes.
tony
p.s. wear and tear on a 10k tranny that fails I never heard of that unless you race your car like a MAD-MAN? mmm...........it's not suppose to do that within 10k.........that should be covered under warranty!!!
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 524
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From: bristow va
Have you tried takgin it over to sterling bmw in va.. I get my service work doen over tehre I like dealign with gene chun, he may not alwasy call you back in time, btu I find hes very fair with you. giv ehim a call. (btw) the va dealership puts mods on cars all the time they have there own booklet of them. or at least they did.
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3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 252
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From: Bethesda, MD / Washington, DC
tony,
Thanks for the link! Printed it out, and I am going to go over it. I really don't think the clutch is shoot, i think it's probably something simple. I don't, well, i do drive fast, but I dont ride the hell out of my clutch. I am just amazed that the dealership had the nerve of blaming EVERY problem on my mods. I mean, i sat on the phone and defended myself, while this twerp threw accusations at me. I tried to explain to him, the car has had many problems (in fact, I COULD have lemoned it, because the fuel filler valve is still leaking, and has been treated over 4 times), but it is just so fun of a car, and that problem is so minor, it doesn't make a difference.
About the sterling dealership; I have a feeling they would do the same thing as Tate. As you can see, the car has lotsa lights and doodads, and i can see them being that same way. It's to late now, I figure Tate has the tranny dropped already this morning.
I am just amazed, because I KNOW i am not the only one who has modded his/her car out, and gone through a major problem. Every aspect of service I have gone through, has been very sub-par. I own a chevy truck too, and it has 35K miles on it, and has been for service ONCE. It has had problems (ie, new roters), but chevy has proven to be quicker, and less painless than the bemmer folks.
thanks for listenning,
Danny
Thanks for the link! Printed it out, and I am going to go over it. I really don't think the clutch is shoot, i think it's probably something simple. I don't, well, i do drive fast, but I dont ride the hell out of my clutch. I am just amazed that the dealership had the nerve of blaming EVERY problem on my mods. I mean, i sat on the phone and defended myself, while this twerp threw accusations at me. I tried to explain to him, the car has had many problems (in fact, I COULD have lemoned it, because the fuel filler valve is still leaking, and has been treated over 4 times), but it is just so fun of a car, and that problem is so minor, it doesn't make a difference.
About the sterling dealership; I have a feeling they would do the same thing as Tate. As you can see, the car has lotsa lights and doodads, and i can see them being that same way. It's to late now, I figure Tate has the tranny dropped already this morning.
I am just amazed, because I KNOW i am not the only one who has modded his/her car out, and gone through a major problem. Every aspect of service I have gone through, has been very sub-par. I own a chevy truck too, and it has 35K miles on it, and has been for service ONCE. It has had problems (ie, new roters), but chevy has proven to be quicker, and less painless than the bemmer folks.
thanks for listenning,
Danny
Welcome to the annoyance of generalization. MINIUSA has a bad habit of teaching their dealerships to blame the actual problem on unrelated (aftermarket) parts. Since you've already printed the Magneson-Moss act, bring it to them and tell them "if you can prove (not just theorize) my aftermarket parts caused the clutch damage, then I'll pay for it" To do this your dealership will have to dismantle your clutch and inspect it. This is something they'll have to pay for, since the burden of proof is on THEM.
Them trying to pull the "the clutch wasn't designed for this kind of power with your aftermarket parts" routine is not going to hold water. Your cat-back and intake will gain you a few horsepower, but I can't imagine anything more than the factory spec tolerance. Furthermore, the JCW kit for the Cooper uses the stock clutch, just like in the Cooper S, so we all know the stock clutches are capable of holding reliably at slightly higher horsepower levels. In any case, your dealership would have to prove that your engine mods changed horsepower or torque at all.
Good luck; it's tiring to keep hearing MINI dealerships itching to screw over their customers. So much for BMW's long-term plans to move MINI customers into BMW's!
Ryan
Them trying to pull the "the clutch wasn't designed for this kind of power with your aftermarket parts" routine is not going to hold water. Your cat-back and intake will gain you a few horsepower, but I can't imagine anything more than the factory spec tolerance. Furthermore, the JCW kit for the Cooper uses the stock clutch, just like in the Cooper S, so we all know the stock clutches are capable of holding reliably at slightly higher horsepower levels. In any case, your dealership would have to prove that your engine mods changed horsepower or torque at all.
Good luck; it's tiring to keep hearing MINI dealerships itching to screw over their customers. So much for BMW's long-term plans to move MINI customers into BMW's!
Ryan
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 601
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From: Geneva, Switzerland
and while they are down there, tell them to add a limited Slip Dif :smile:
I like the idea if taking a copy of the M-M act in with you...in fact, I'm thinking about printing it out and keeping it in the glove box with the claim of insurance...
L
I like the idea if taking a copy of the M-M act in with you...in fact, I'm thinking about printing it out and keeping it in the glove box with the claim of insurance...
L
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
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I'm with MINI USA. Modification of your vehicle or installation of any non-approved aftermarket performance accessory will void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty. Components attached to the vehicle which alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications will void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty. Components attached to the vehicle that result in damage to other original components will also void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty coverage. However, the John Cooper Works High Performance Tuning Kit is a modification approved by MINI Division. I hope this information helps, but feel free to call us at 866 ASK.MINI if you need any further clarification.
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 321
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From: Melbourne, FL
For some reason that seems like cut and paste legalese from MINI Division.
The burden of proof is upon you, oh corporate shill, in accordance with established laws. So bluster as you will, a good attorney will have the gold fillings out of your teeth regardless.
Print the MM act, present the dealership with a copy, they obviously lost theirs, and stick to your guns. This intimidation crap is asinine and unacceptable.
The burden of proof is upon you, oh corporate shill, in accordance with established laws. So bluster as you will, a good attorney will have the gold fillings out of your teeth regardless.
Print the MM act, present the dealership with a copy, they obviously lost theirs, and stick to your guns. This intimidation crap is asinine and unacceptable.
3rd Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 255
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From: Palatine, Illinois
Hmm
Interesting
An entire marketing campaign around how this is an invidualist's car. How many of you have those free sticker deals that let you put racing numbers, or flames, or baja lights, or what have you on the car?
How many new cars have factory provided option of flags on their roof??
This car screams "take me and change me!" Kind of like the play, "I love you, you're perfect, now change"
So, when you do what their advertising specifically directs you to do, they throw it back in your face?
Will someone please explain to me how an exhaust system, lights and radiator hoses would wear out a clutch that quickly? What's their argument? That the increased drag by the 4 aux driving lights brought the drag cd up to about 100? And that the clutch wore out prematurely as a result?
Interesting
An entire marketing campaign around how this is an invidualist's car. How many of you have those free sticker deals that let you put racing numbers, or flames, or baja lights, or what have you on the car?
How many new cars have factory provided option of flags on their roof??
This car screams "take me and change me!" Kind of like the play, "I love you, you're perfect, now change"
So, when you do what their advertising specifically directs you to do, they throw it back in your face?
Will someone please explain to me how an exhaust system, lights and radiator hoses would wear out a clutch that quickly? What's their argument? That the increased drag by the 4 aux driving lights brought the drag cd up to about 100? And that the clutch wore out prematurely as a result?
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 109
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MINIDvision, I recommend that you read up on (or have Mini's attorneys review) the relevant provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act (
15 USC 2301 et seq.). A great and very detailed primer on the subject, written for businesses like Mini by the Federal Trade Commission, can be found here.
The short of it is that you need to be careful that you're not making an unlawful "tie-in." The publication I just referenced provides a helpful example that illustrates what an unlawful tie-in is. If I manufacture "David's SuperDuper Vaccuum Cleaners," I can't condition my warranty on the purchase of "David's SuperDuper Replacement Dust Bags." (*) Indeed, that example is particularly appropriate here, as we're talking about a "replacement filter" for a Mini, too -- the intake filter.
You might also read 16 C.F.R. 700.10. The Code of Federal Regulations is the place in which Federal agencies, such as the FTC, clarify the United States Code, which often lacks specifics. I'll quote the relevant part to give you a jump start:
In light of the provisions of section 2302 and the CFR section quoted above, the notion that "modification of your vehicle or installation of any non-approved aftermarket performance accessory will void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty" is misleading at best. Nothing short of the complete replacement of every component of the car would totally void the warranty. What you really mean, without overstatement, is that installation of non-approved aftermarket performance components voids the warranty on the replaced component and on any component as to which "the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was [caused by the aftermarket performance components]" (paraphrasing the CFR). I'm not a mechanic, but I would guess that Mini would have an awful hard time showing that ~10hp worth of performance modifications to parts unconnected to the clutch caused CoopingInDC's difficulties. Your post, and the dealer's response to CoopingInDC's problem, therefore appears to be bluster aimed at avoiding responsibility for legitimate warranty claims -- precisely the sort of thing that aspiring class action plaintiffs attorneys salivate over. Like I said, I'd huddle with your lawyers and come back with a more careful response.
(*) There is an exception to this, however. Mini is free to apply to the FTC for a determination that a particular part is essential to the proper operation of the warrantied device. (15 USC 2302(c)(1)-(2).) I assume that you have not obtained FTC waiver concerning, for example, replacement of a Mini air intake.
15 USC 2301 et seq.). A great and very detailed primer on the subject, written for businesses like Mini by the Federal Trade Commission, can be found here.
The short of it is that you need to be careful that you're not making an unlawful "tie-in." The publication I just referenced provides a helpful example that illustrates what an unlawful tie-in is. If I manufacture "David's SuperDuper Vaccuum Cleaners," I can't condition my warranty on the purchase of "David's SuperDuper Replacement Dust Bags." (*) Indeed, that example is particularly appropriate here, as we're talking about a "replacement filter" for a Mini, too -- the intake filter.
You might also read 16 C.F.R. 700.10. The Code of Federal Regulations is the place in which Federal agencies, such as the FTC, clarify the United States Code, which often lacks specifics. I'll quote the relevant part to give you a jump start:
No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. ... These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102 (c) ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of "unauthorized'' articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized'' articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.
(*) There is an exception to this, however. Mini is free to apply to the FTC for a determination that a particular part is essential to the proper operation of the warrantied device. (15 USC 2302(c)(1)-(2).) I assume that you have not obtained FTC waiver concerning, for example, replacement of a Mini air intake.
Argggh! Folks -- MINIUSA included! -- before you continue flogging the "mods do or do not impact warranty" issue, you need to READ the intial post in this thread. Danny, don't you say that you had your transmission REPLACED at 3,000 miles? Then, you have a clutch problem (which may or may not be the whole clutch...no one has actually diagnosed the real problem yet, right??) 7,000 miles later.
Doesn't anyone thing that maybe, just maybe, there was damage done to some aspect of the clutch during that earlier transmission job? Wouldn't it be a good idea to totally exhaust this avenue of investigation before going into conjecture about who or what sucks, driving styles, and general purpose rants against the manufacturer?
And since all of this discussion seems to be operating in a vacuum of information, perhaps Danny you can tell us what was done to your car in the first transmission job. Then at least we can conjecture about the actual mechanical problem that may or may not be impacting your clutch.
Doesn't anyone thing that maybe, just maybe, there was damage done to some aspect of the clutch during that earlier transmission job? Wouldn't it be a good idea to totally exhaust this avenue of investigation before going into conjecture about who or what sucks, driving styles, and general purpose rants against the manufacturer?
And since all of this discussion seems to be operating in a vacuum of information, perhaps Danny you can tell us what was done to your car in the first transmission job. Then at least we can conjecture about the actual mechanical problem that may or may not be impacting your clutch.
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 109
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A good point, but I did read the initial thread. I don't see the story as outside the typical Mini-blames-aftermarket-mods trend, provided the initial transmission work was done at a dealer (which I suppose I just assumed). Indeed, the fact that there is a much more likely explanation for his current woes (as you point out) makes this particularly bothersome.
I agree, though, more info is always good: any updates?
^ My conjecture, btw, is that the same dealer that worked on his transmission at 3K is now giving him grief about mods/warranty now at 13K...and thus, I suspect that they're a bunch of no-good bozos. But it would be good to get that bit about the transmission work on the table first so that we can be more clear on their bozoaitude. 
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3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 252
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From: Bethesda, MD / Washington, DC
Give a little update here...
NOTHING
the dealer has not returned my calls, and I have yet to hear ANYTHING. Kinda lame if you ask me. The transmission was replaced at the sterling Mini dealership, not the one I dropped it off at, Tate. I think the main thing here is, the car is defected. It had a problem, it was fixed. It got another problem, and should be fixed. It's under a warranty. Maybe the dealership freaked out when they saw the car, and didn't want to make themselves liable... I thinks it's also funny, cause the guy was looking for things to blame (ie, My endlinks and sway bars and shocks!). whata joke.
I REALLY THINK MINIUSA NEEDS TO FIX A LOT OF THINGS WITH THEIR SYSTEM. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, EVEN CHEVROLET IS BETTER.
i will call AGAIN today
=danny=
NOTHING
the dealer has not returned my calls, and I have yet to hear ANYTHING. Kinda lame if you ask me. The transmission was replaced at the sterling Mini dealership, not the one I dropped it off at, Tate. I think the main thing here is, the car is defected. It had a problem, it was fixed. It got another problem, and should be fixed. It's under a warranty. Maybe the dealership freaked out when they saw the car, and didn't want to make themselves liable... I thinks it's also funny, cause the guy was looking for things to blame (ie, My endlinks and sway bars and shocks!). whata joke.
I REALLY THINK MINIUSA NEEDS TO FIX A LOT OF THINGS WITH THEIR SYSTEM. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, EVEN CHEVROLET IS BETTER.
i will call AGAIN today
=danny=
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,730
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>>
>>I'm with MINI USA. Modification of your vehicle or installation of any non-approved aftermarket performance accessory will void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty. Components attached to the vehicle which alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications will void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty. Components attached to the vehicle that result in damage to other original components will also void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty coverage. However, the John Cooper Works High Performance Tuning Kit is a modification approved by MINI Division. I hope this information helps, but feel free to call us at 866 ASK.MINI if you need any further clarification.
MINIDIVISION - In the words of Donald Trump, "You're Fired!"
>>I'm with MINI USA. Modification of your vehicle or installation of any non-approved aftermarket performance accessory will void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty. Components attached to the vehicle which alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications will void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty. Components attached to the vehicle that result in damage to other original components will also void the MINI new passenger car limited warranty coverage. However, the John Cooper Works High Performance Tuning Kit is a modification approved by MINI Division. I hope this information helps, but feel free to call us at 866 ASK.MINI if you need any further clarification.
MINIDIVISION - In the words of Donald Trump, "You're Fired!"
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3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 252
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From: Bethesda, MD / Washington, DC
wellllll...
I got the call. They took the engine out, disconnected the driveshaft, pulled out the trans, and apparently, the clutch "crumbled" out. So, after 10K miles (the entire trans and clutch was replaced at 3K), the clutch plate is nothing. Does this make sense? The dealer blammed it on the way the car is driven... Now? They want me to pay $1500 for a new clutch.
Anyone think I'm bending over and taking it?
=Danny=
I got the call. They took the engine out, disconnected the driveshaft, pulled out the trans, and apparently, the clutch "crumbled" out. So, after 10K miles (the entire trans and clutch was replaced at 3K), the clutch plate is nothing. Does this make sense? The dealer blammed it on the way the car is driven... Now? They want me to pay $1500 for a new clutch.
Anyone think I'm bending over and taking it?
=Danny=
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 393
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From: Houston
sorry to say...........yeah..........but I can only assume that you don't drive you car like a race car. By this I mean like taking it to the track and racing it only. But from a daily drive and the trans. to fall apart that is not normal. Can they prove that it was the way you drove it? I think not. I hope things will work out and you don't have to pay.
tony
tony
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,706
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From: Tallahassee FL
WTF? Why should you pay for a new clutch when it's under warranty? Your mods don't rpoduce anywhere near enough power to melt the clutch. Unless you've been using the clutch pedal as a foot rest, it's obvious that the clutch is defective.
Absolute bulls**t, if you aske me.
Absolute bulls**t, if you aske me.
