I have a 2009 MCS Conv. that I bought for my wife. It is ten months old with just short of 4,000 miles. The last few days, when started the first time during the day, it runs on one or two cylinders, sounds like a diesel, and smokes like a freight train. After about 60 seconds it runs fine and works the rest of the day.

I called the local dealer and made an appointment for service on Monday. The first question asked was "What kind of fuel do you use?". In this case it has been exclusively Shell Premium. Obviously the Service Adviser has been trained to ask this question.

I spent 42 years of my life in the auto business owning and operating dealerships of everything from Fiat to Rolls Royce. I have seen cars sputter, ping, and get poor mileage from inferior gas. I can count on two hands the number of cars that would not start or started with major problems caused by bad gas. Those had dirt or water in the tank and it was a major operation to remove the tank, clean it, and clear the lines. It wasn't just a poor quality of gas or a little too much ethanol content.

My question is simply this: What started Mini and BMW on the road to blaming seemingly all drive ability issues on fuel? There are a lot of very exotic vehicles that I have owned where fuel was never mentioned. Certainly not the first question when reporting a problem. Why do we as consumers accept this attempt by them to dodge their own problems? Reading this Forum shows this to be a common response in MINI Dealerships but not at most others. WHY?

 

I don't have 42 years in the car business but my Mini runs remarkably better on Sunoco 94 Ultra. It accelerates stronger. The exhaust is louder and more aggressive. After six cars and five motorcycles, this vehicle has the most difference from gasoline brand/octane I've ever seen.

Other company brands with 93 premium run OK. And my Mini actually sputters on other brand's of 89 and 87 octane. It sounds like a spark plug is out (though I had them changed five months ago).

 

The question is really not about maximum performance but rather the minimum of starting and running normaly. If every running problem is blamed on "bad fuel" why aren't there cars littering the streets everywhere that have died? I have five cars, all of which use the same fuel supplier and location. When I have problems with any of the other four, the first excuse is not fuel!

 

If they tell you excess ethanol, ask them to test the cars on their lot. Chances are they will turn up high also. Then ask them to google MINI Cooper, Brazil, you will see that starting with the 2009 model year BMW has been selling MINIs in Brazil. FYI the minimum ethanol content in Brazil is 25%.

 

Follow the money.

They do it because they want us to pay for fixing it.

Had the same thing when the car had about 3,000 miles.

Took it to the dealership and asked for a diagnosis only, no repairs until I say so.

They said bad fuel and estimated ~$1,000 for repairs. Not a warranty covered item.

I said fine, drove away and sent fuel samples to an independent lab.

Lab results: the fuel was 100% fine.

I took the lab report back to the dealer where I couldn't find anybody willing to look at it. They said that if I wanted the car fixed it would cost me $1,000.

I called Mini USA who was very sorry and promised to have the dealership GM contact me. Still waiting for that call.

I sent the four injectors to a Bosch service center in Huntington Beach, CA.

I got them back a week later along with an invoice for $200.

Installed the injectors and since that day the car has been running perfect.

I took the paperwork to the dealer where I couldn't find anybody willing to look at it.

Clear?

 

I hope you have everything you said documented. I would send MiniUSA a certified letter with copies of everything along with a bill for $ 1,000.00!

 

This is Crazy. We've had instances with bad gas, and it's never just one car. What happens is all the car dealers within a 10 mile radius will be getting cars with the same problems cause your not the only car that filled up that day. When this happened last we had chevy dealers calling the BMW to ask if they were having the same kind of complaints and sure enough the Ford dealer and everyone is was the same. I think the real chances these days of getting bad gas is close to winning the lottery. It just doesn't happen that often.

 

It sounds like your car is affected by the cold start chatter. I would look at all the MCS' and MCCS' affected in the link below and tell the S.A. about it. He/She is probably just trying to c.h.a. (cover his/her ***).

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...tabase-17.html

 

between a few (and i do mean few) of my own experiences and ALL of the things i read on here. MINI seems to think their drivers are killing their cars and they really do believe their coopers are without fault. not just this but loads of issue, they seem to have an excuse for everything until you complain enough and then they'll sort it out.

 

My description is probably inadequate. The car doesn't rattle. It shakes and vibrates and sounds like a two cycle lawn mower that hasn't been started for a year. After about 60-90 seconds it smooths out and runs fine for the rest of the day. If it had anything to do with fuel, it wouldn't run properly after it is started and run for a brief period.

MINI dealers seem to have this mind set that these things need perfect fuel to run at all. An idea that has to be fostered by MINI U.S. From a lot of experience, I can assure you this is not true. There are a lot of high tech, four cylinder, fuel injected engines sold around the world. Most of them run just fine in countries where the best fuel is inferior to the worst fuel in the U.S. The only sensible reason for dealers to have the attitude they do is pressure from MINI U.S. and rejection of warranty claims. Otherwise, they are just offending customers for something that should be taken care of without all the drama and playing twenty questions.

What happens is some genius at corporate gets convinced running problems are a result of poor fuel. He rejects warranty claims, this saves money, and he is a hero. Factually, this covers up engineering problems, if at all true, and shifts costs to the consumer. As enthusiasts, and I am one, we should challenge supposed fuel related problems loudly every time. When the dealers are made uncomfortable enough, they will demand corporate re-think their position and look for a better way.

 

To the OP......yes bad gas can have that kind of effect. But remember, this MINI is a direct injection engine and thus can be more prone to bad performance caused by bad gas. Be it debris, water, or whatever.

 

[quote=MINI33342;3065038]To the OP......yes bad gas can have that kind of effect. But remember, this MINI is a direct injection engine and thus can be more prone to bad performance caused by bad gas. Be it debris, water, or whatever.[/quote


Now, there is the Kool-Aid MINI likes to serve!

There is nothing unique about direct injection gas engines to BMW or MINI. They have existed for many decades and were widely used in aircraft before and during WWII. The on board computer capability in recent years has allowed wide spread use in everyday vehicles. I have sold and serviced hundreds of them, not BMW or MINI, without the continuous theoretical fuel problems they try to feed us.

Yes, fuel injectors of any kind are prone to building up deposits from burned fuel and or fuel with sediment or water can clog them. Unless you get a bad tank of gas, which could happen, deposits don't build up in 4,000 miles in a normal engine. When injectors are clogged, they don't miraculously clear themselves within 60 seconds of start-up and exhibit no other signs for the next 100 miles of operation.

Undoubtedly the dealership will find a sensor malfunction at start-up in my vehicle. That's OK. Electronics do fail. My point is that MINI is obviously training service personnel to question fuel problems BEFORE finding the problem. This puts the customer on the defensive and makes the two parties automatically working at cross purposes. They are trying to shift the expense and we are trying to get our vehicle repaired under the warranty they sold so hard during the purchase. We pay a very premium price for our vehicles and therefore should receive the normal consideration that goes with paying often in excess of $30,000 for a tiny car. I don't mind paying for what I want but I do mind facing an inquisition to get it fixed, which was part of the deal originally.

 

"What started Mini and BMW on the road to blaming seemingly all drive ability issues on fuel?"

The sulfer in our cheap east coast gas destroying the cylinder heads in their
newly designed V8's back in 1993? I see no crime in simply asking what gas you use. YMMV.

 

You may well have hit on the problem. Seventeen years ago they sold a car in the Eastern U.S. that by default obviously had to use available fuel just like every other car sold there by every other manufacturer. Instead of accepting blame they wanted to blame the fuel? Why didn't every other new car suffer the same problem? History does repeat.

Certainly there is no crime in asking what fuel you use. It does though imply fault lies with their customer and not their product. If it is caused by bad fuel and they can prove it, good for them. Otherwise it is very poor marketing to start making excuses before they even see the car. There is a reason MINI finished last in Customer Satisfaction returns after all. So far, every experience I have had with a MINI dealership has been abysmal and that comes from a pro dealership guy all the way.

 

"Instead of accepting blame they wanted to blame the fuel?"

They fixed the problem under warranty.

 

So, I arrived at 8:00 AM this morning for my scheduled appointment. They wrote the car up and told me it would take an hour or less to diagnose the problem. Thirty minutes later the Service Adviser comes to me with a fuel tester in hand and tells me there was too much alcohol in the fuel. Surprise, surprise!

I stated that was B.S. and I wanted to talk with the mechanic. He arrived with another fuel tester full of gas and said there was 22% alcohol in the fuel. I asked if he had checked for codes (the check engine light had been on) and if he had driven the car. The answer was negative to both questions. I asked him how confident he was that his $2.00 bubble tester was accurate and volunteered to pay for a lab test of the fuel in the tank.

Let us be logical here. The fuel has always been purchased exclusively at a Shell station a few blocks from my house. It is premium grade and the same supplier for my other three vehicles. What are the odds that Shell, a major volume gas retailer, suddenly loaded up a tanker with gas containing 220% more ethanol than the legal limit? And, if that were to have happened, why are my other vehicles showing no signs of a problem nor the vehicles of several of my neighbors who also use the same station? Furthermore, why does the MINI only have a problem at cold start and then starts and runs perfectly the rest of the day.

Talking to the technician, he told me that the dealership's policy was to test the fuel in every vehicle brought into service. If he did not do so, any rejected warranty claims were charged back to him personally. Out of his own pocket! It is a self fulfilling prophecy. Test the fuel using less than professional equipment and avoid making repairs that could potentially cost the tech personally if BMW questions the validity of the repair.

The ultimate solution was for me to leave the vehicle, take a loaner, and they would actually start the car cold tomorrow to see the problem for themselves. I will let you know the results. The moral of the story, don't accept the bad fuel fairy tale. Tell them it is B.S. and offer to pay for an actual lab to test the fuel (something they don't want to happen). This whole thing is a BMW myth and until we as customers call their bluff, it will continue to cost us money and time!

 

It breaks my heart to read these posts. Bad gas is a myth perpetrated by less-than-satisfactory services procedures.

I had a brand new Subaru Outback XT, and long-story-short, they claimed "bad gas" was causing a misfire on a 1-year-old car. (they even wanted $200 to shoot 'carb cleaner' in the intake stream!)

(turns out way after we sold the car that they were defective injectors for EJ25s)

Subaru service departments can be bad too. Sorry that I'm hearing Mini dealers can be that way.

In the meantime, I bought hatchback Civic Si (which I like but don't love) and throw in whatever kind of gas I want, and it doesn't affect drive ability at all.

 

There is no inherent reason that like the Si (also a high tech engine) the MINI will not run on most anything you put in it. They are sold and operated in countries where the fuel and cleanliness standards of the U.S. would make theirs look archaic. While ultimate performance may well be slightly less, the drive-ability would be maintained. The Si would be but one example out of dozens where this absurdity is not in play.

Really, test the fuel BEFORE you observe the symptoms of the complaint or even drive the car! That is a slap in the face to every customer who owns a MINI. While it breaks your heart to read this about MINI, it breaks my heart for dealers and manufacturers to treat people this way in an industry that I spent 42 years of my life in!

 

Today, June 8, they called and told me the MINI was ready for pickup. When I arrived, they told me they had re-programmed the complete vehicle including the CAS. There was no mention of the 22% ethanol fuel they felt it had in it. We will see if it will now start and run when engine is cold.

 

WoW.... My daily driver 97 Chevy S10 only get the cheapest gas I can find
and I only have 230,4XX miles on it.... My weekend truck a 08 Dodge Ram quad cab with the HEMI gets the same and I use regular in it too... Now my Vette has to have Premium but it's built to 427 but I also buy the bargain brand and it has made it to 70,000 with out a hitch and the one before it went over 100K..... So far all that Mini Mee get's is the lowest priced premium too..... If it blows up it blows up

 

I get a sense from the many posts I have read on this topic that it is a fall back excuse for a possible design flaw.

For instance. We had a 1.8L Turbo VW Passat. Even though the MFG called for high octane fuel, and it probably would have been more zippy, it digested the 87 octane stuff just fine. Had no driveabiltiy issues and nor mechanical failures for 100K miles.....

In most cases ( 2nd Gen MINI's ) even with less than 5K miles - I think it is just carbon buildup and Seafoam is in order.

 

its not a desing flaw, its not a huge problem, and it is way to over diagnoised. The main problem lies in unknowldgeable service advisors. many people behind the desk know very little..... most, damn near next to nothing. customers will come in and say they are having driveability issues, but cant replicate them at the vist. Most advisiors just dont know enough to come up with a decent response that fits the symptoms. soooo they blame someone elese. the gas... the thruth is as MINI owners we car more about our cars then most. so we pick up on simpler things that most would deem normal. these things will avtually leave a trail in the computers, however with smaller issues that are random occureces. the engine computer will just decied to forget about it and move on with life. if it recored and stored every little hiccup diagnoising would be wadeing threw mounds of useless data that would lead Techs down a wild goose chase.


However the concearn the OP is complaing about sounds valid. Your most likely suffering from a bad High pressure fuel pump there very sporadic. have you had it replaced? also I have seen a few issues of bad plugs but there usually present in the very begining.

where are you located?

 

Our 09 MCCS had the same symptoms as OP, using Shell Premium, in the with a similar responce from MINI service; 15% ETOH in the gas, then an appointment to reprogram the cars puter. Problam reoccured in a few weeks, back to MINI service running even worse. They replaced the HP fuel pump and suggested only Chevron Premium gas, and commented that they had seen this in the past with Shell fueled MINI's. I wonder if this my be related to the lubricity of the gas, knowing that direct-injected diesels sometimes have HP fuel pump issues due to low lubricity.
We have put nearly 4000 grinning miles on our MINI since with no issues and no regrets as to our decision to buy our MINI.

 

I would not disagree that it is the high pressure fuel pump. No it has not been replaced because they are too busy blaming the fuel and too worried MINI will reject the warranty claim. When it fails completely and has to be towed, I guess we will know!

It is not the Service Advisers job to know anything about diagnosing the vehicle. His job is to communicate accurately the actual syptoms as described by the customer to the tech without an opinion on what the problem is. It is the techs job to then take this information and through testing, find or explain the cause. It is then his job to explain the results to the consumer.

An SA is a communicator and salesman while the tech is the mechanically knowledgeable person and fixer. About 50% of the problems in a service department start when the SA doesn't communicate well with the tech and the customer and everything starts down the wrong road. The best Service Advisor's I ever employed wouldn't know how to change the oil but were good listeners and better communicators.

 

Update:

I went out and started the car this morning. It is about 50% better than before. It probably runs on two or three cylinders when started rather than the one or two it was running on. Back to the dealer for round two!