Offtopic:

Ongnoi (are you vietnamese? lol)

I wish I could have kept my 00 M coupe

 

More than likely it was ground water intrusion from a leaking underground fuel tank. Gas doesn't just leak out, ground water and run-off can leak in.

30+ years experience in process instrumentation installation, calibration of chemical analyzers, including fuels.
They ever tell me bad gas, they're in for an introductory lesson into process sampling,extraction and analysis.

 

i got the bad gas bit a while back. they said it like a warning. interestingly once with my last mercedes they said don't get cheap "bad" gas only because of impurities that would shorten the life of the filter. as someone said before, the filtration should take care of this stuff.

 

Here's a random question...For those of you who have had loaners for a extended period of time - let's say a week or longer - have you experienced any issues with the loaners? CEL's? Diesel-like noise from the engine? Anything?

 

Man, I had an 09 JCW Clubbie that was beat to hell....Funny thing was, the clutch was popping on he way out and that was the same exact thing i was getting fixed on my 09 MCS. I feel sorry for whoever gets suckered into buying that thing.

 

i have 2008 mcs i run chevron premium 93 octane and every3500 miles i add 1bottle of techron complete fuel systems cleaner so far no problems turbo run cars can present a lot of carbon build up in the intake system and can clog your valves and spark plugs hope this helps you in the future miniinhd

 

Errr, Direct injection cars do not get the benefit of the added cleaner as the gas does not spray on the valves where the carbon buildup from PCV builds up. It can not, by definition, assist in the cleaning of the intake system. If a car built after, oh say 1980, builds up on the spark plugs, you have a far more serious problem that cleaners will not solve. I do not know about the lube of Techron, so it may be beneficial to the HP pump. I am not slighting Techron. I run it in my wife's 98 Civic. It is PORT injected.

Yes, had loners for a week more than once. Clubmans. Never a problem.

 

Gas can have a big effect on performance. High Pressure Fuel Pumps fail because of high levels of ethanol. Check to see what your BMW/Mini Service Manager says about it. They recommend 8% ethanol but concede that 10% might happen. If it goes higher than that then it is "Bad Gas".

When the Government mandate demands 15% Ethanol this year we were told yesterday by our Service Manager that our engine warranties will not be honored any longer! Swell! Write your Congressman and Senators!! Proper tires, tire pressure, alignment and driving can save more fuel than their stupid E-15 Program.

S.

 

If this really happens then why would anybody buy a BMW/Mini product much less any other brand that offers a turbo engine? Looks like your common, non-enthusiast car buyers will be in for a world of hurt in the coming years. Especially in states like California. AWESOME!

 

When the Government mandate demands 15% Ethanol this year we were told yesterday by our Service Manager that our engine warranties will not be honored any longer!

From what I understand its not mandated that they use it. Gas companies still have the option to use E10 or E15. Plus, if the gov't made us use gas that intentionally voided manufacturer warranties there would be ALOT of lawsuits to follow.

 

That and where do you think Gas Stations are going to be putting the E15 Fuel Tanks??!!

 

Does E-15 require different tanks? Did E-10 require different tanks?

S.

 

We may see it eventually, but it really doesn't look like it is going to be in the Life of my MINI...what about yours??

"As stations are not required to offer E15, a practical barrier to the commercialization of E15 is the lack of infrastructure, similar to the limitations suffered by sales of E85, as most fuel stations do not have enough pumps to offer the new blend, few existing pumps are certified to dispense E15, and there are no dedicated tanks readily available to store E15. Also some state and federal regulations would have to change before E15 can be legally sold." excerpt from Wikipedia

 

One Mini is an '09 and the other is an '11 so it could happen in the life span of the car. Why could not the government just mandate E-15 and do away with E-10 and use the existing tanks? I sincerely hope not but the possibility exists. Our Service Manager said in a public forum yesterday that when they got fuel pump problems they tested the fuel and found an ethanol content of 14.xx % and that was why the pump failed. He recommended steering clear of Costco Gas.

S.

 

I don't recall this info. being mentioned in your afore post, I'm curious as to why?? So your Manager told you this and that's why you're giving people the wrong idea about the E-15 voiding our Warranties...interesting!!

I think you might be interested in reading the 2011 Cooper S Countryman All4 Owner's Manual on pg. 113 it gives a description of what fuels are acceptable to be run in the Brand New MINIs.

 

So what does it say in that brand new manual that virtually nobody has?. Do you have a new Countryman? The Countryman is not an R-56, so what did they do differently "On pg.113"?

The discussion was with 30 people, representing 2 car clubs with hundreds of people in those 2 clubs, getting a lecture and demonstration by our Service Manager and his Technicians. The topic that I was relaying here is his answer to the ethanol problem questions posed by several people in the crowd, not by myself. He specifically said that if they finally suspect a problem that they cannot immediately find then they check the fuel for ethanol, and other contaminants. He said that the plastic seals and pump impellers swell up with high percentages of ethanol. He said repeatedly that our warranties would no longer be good for the engine/fuel system, we are discussing fuel related systems in this Post.

Now I am sure you are aware that when there is a fuel tanker sitting in your favorite gas station, filling at that station at that time, that there could not be a worse time to fill your car? Stirs up contaminants in the bottom of their tanks, including water. Some stations are better than others at maintaining their tanks or replacing them. He did not mention this specifically, but he and others in the crowd mentioned Costco fuel and how their cars barely made it out of the parking lot after filling there.

 

There are only 3 gas tanks underground at a gas station. 87, 93 (more or less depending on where you live) and possibly diesel.

Any other octane rating like 90 is a mix of 87 and 93.

If any other tanks were required the gas stations would likely go out of business since they make so little money (1%) on gas they would not spend the money to do it. They make their money at the attached micro-market.

 

Very true, 3 tanks possibly 4, but of the 3 gasoline tanks they all say "May contain 10% ethanol". So what stops them from changing that sign/sticker on the pumps and putting E-15 into those 3 tanks? Is there a mechanical/physical difference in requirements for the tanks?

For years the underground tanks were rusting out and leaking contaminants into the soils. Finally the EPA made the companies install tanks that would not rust out from condensate in the tanks. I am sure you have seen piles of contaminated dirt next to a gas station while the station was trying to get rid of it. This change took many years and as a tank was found to leak then it was changed. I have seen no such change when E-10 was put into effect.

S.

 

I did a ton of tank removals working for an environmental consulting firm in the late 90's. There was federal $ to remove steel tanks until 2000 and some states would not extend a permit if they did not have plastic tanks afterward. So we saw a lot of closed gas stations right after that, at least in MI. The majority of all gas stations have new plastic tanks, especially any that have a mini-mart attached. Although some states still allow steel ones with epoxy coatings that are as chemically resistant as poly ones as long as they are installed properly. I have worked in civil engineering and spent a lot of time either removing or installing gas stations in MI in late 90's.

E-10 or E-15, the ethanol is a homogenous mix in the gasoline, so I cannot see what the difference it would make to the tank itself, especially since the plastic is effectively inert to most everything chemically. The gas tank in your car is polypropelene (PP).

Generally the 'bad gas' issue is very very rare. Especially if you are buying it from a busy place that looks like it has been remodeled in the last 10 years. They are getting a new delivery at least every other day, some places every day. 10,000 gal tanker is only about 600 vehicles. Also the gas pump has filters, and so does your car to remove any possible sediments.

Bad gas is typically from a tanker putting diesel in the gasoline and all the cars that got it die and it ends up on the news. Although I do know a gas station that got caught putting water in his gas, a small amount will mix since all gasoline does contain a tiny amount of water.

 

You are stating my point very well. The tanks are not necessary to be replaced if there is a switch to E-15.

We live in a fairly small community so fuel tankers are not a daily or every other day experience, but they certainly happen weekly. We have a couple of refinery's just north of Seattle that serve most of the Puget Sound but I do not know if they are the people putting in the ethanol blend or the distributors are putting it into the fuel. I get conflicting reports from the stations. All I can confirm is that all stations will tell me is that "It is a Federal and State mandate" to use E-10.

Yep, diesel will indeed ruin your day unless you are driving a diesel!

S.

 

In most of the USA the gasoline you get at any gas station is the same thing from the regional depot/refinery. Nobody wants to deal with FED/State and EPA regulations outside of the refinery. So they just add additives to the tanker truck since it is a known volume to support company X marketing.

Ethanol must be blended at the depot (tank farm) distribution point, just because of the cost of the regulations that nobody would want to add. I don't know this for sure, but knowing how small the profit margins get once fuel leaves the tank farm I doubt anyone would do it any other way.

 

So that is where the errors in ethanol ratio's could arise!

Another question that was posed by a fellow Club member was what does it do to the ECU? I would have thought nothing, but apparently with all the sensors our engines have the ECU is constantly compensating for fuel differences so it is "Learning" what you have been putting into the car and it could take some time for the EC to relearn a new fuel blend. There is the possibility that you could have your Dealership Service Dept. reset those codes for fuel, but probably not necessary.

S.

 

Any Service Manager making the statement that using E-15 fuel would void the warranty is into problems far above his pay grade. While he is certainly entitled to his own opinion, I think there will be a lot of discussions at a corporate level between the EPA and BMW before that decision is made.

The EPA states that it is suitable for 2007 and newer cars. Obviously there are a number of manufacturers involved in the problem. For BMW to effectively void the warranty on every vehicle sold since 2007 would be a huge public relations and legal problem with far reaching consequences. If E-15 becomes predominately or the only fuel available, some adjustments will have to be made.

The question is yet to be answered why BMW is fighting this entire fuel question so hard. They seem to have literally scared the dealers to death with their practices and then the dealers have passed it along to the technicians. In many stores, if a repair is rejected because of "bad fuel" by the BMW warranty process, the technician who did the repair is told he will be responsible for the cost of the repair. This leads to technicians with highly inaccurate bubble testers running around telling consumers their ethanol content is outside parameters. Sometimes this is true but often not even close.

There are a number of other manufacturers, some high end and some lower in the market, building direct injection motors. You are not hearing nearly as many fuel problems cited from the non-German manufacturers. It would certainly be a rational assumption that what creates a fuel problem for one would be a problem for all. The response of BMW AG is not without precedence. Having been involved with them for decades, it has long been SOP for them to ignore any other direction in the market other than the one they choose.

 

Not necessarily true since the vehicle manual states that use of UP TO AND INCLUDING 10% ETHANOL WILL NOT VOID THE WARRANTY. Thus any prudent individual will understand using 15% Ethanol fuel WILL VOID THE WARRANTY. There has been several case that when it could be proved that the ethanol content exceeded E10 the repairs were not covered under warranty.

BMW is not the only auto manufacture fighting E15: From today's new: http://www.powergenworldwide.com/ind...340958367.html

Also other law suits:
http://conservativedailynews.com/201...e-to-overturn/

http://www.brighterenergy.org/19185/...fuel-approval/

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/5...r-e15-approval

This is definitely a political issue that we the consumer will probably lose out on unfortunately.

 

I would be the first to agree that the entire ethanol situation is spiraling out of control. With our Government subsidizing corn/ethanol production, making a guarantee for volume of usage, and then using the EPA to validate these moves...it is clearly a problem.

But, if by EPA mandate, E15 becomes the predominate if not only fuel available within given locations, then what? If suddenly my 2009 MINI is without warranty, along with tens of thousands of other BMW products, all the "he said-they said" arguments in the world will never overcome the marketing hit BMW would suffer in the aftermath.

At the end of the day, simply follow the money. BMW and MINI have too much invested to simply walk away from the largest market in the World. All the posturing and all the talk inciting enthusiasts of their product, would not change the fact that ultimately they will be forced to modify their position.