The first time the warning light corresponded with the owner's manual instruction to drive slowly. The light stayed on the whole way to work, which was 7 miles. After work it started and ran without warnings or problem of any kind.

Weeks later it happened at below-zero (F) temperature again. This time the engine backfired. I shut it off and phoned MINI. They sent a flatbed and took my MINI 250 miles to my dealership, and provided a free rental car. The service manager said they replaced the throttle with a revised version. That's all I know about it. The problem has not recurred.

 

I've had a slightly rough start from time to time (even in the summer). I especially notice rough idle when I put my car up on a ramp (incline), pre and post oil change. Nothing as bad as what's been described in this thread but certainly there. I'm not too worried about it...yet.

 

Posters on MINI2 are reporting getting the new chain tensioner now. Any news from the folks here on NAM? I'm scheduled for a spring delivery so I'd love to here that the new part works as advertised.

 

Even after the supposed "fix" they have for it. Still came back. I am getting rid of mine, too worried about the ramifications down the road after my warranty. PLus, The mini started to get to me, size does matter. I was always afraid of getting in a bad wreck in one too. stepping up to a bigger car... I will probably replace with a used 330i.

don't get me wrong mini has MANY awesome features, but left a sour taste in my mouth.

 

From Mini2:

"Late build engines i.e.from 01.05.07 will need a spring operated tensioner. Engines built before this date will have a modified oil pressure tensioner see PuMa Measure 10686850."

http://www.mini2.com/forum/2nd-gen-f...n-cold-70.html

 

replacing the tensioner doesn't seem to work for most people.

 

Unless maybe there's something different about the redesigned tensioner. When people had them replaced before, was it with the same kind that had just been pulled out... i.e., a new one off the same shelf as the original?

 

The new tensioner has only allegedly been available since late December.

 

I'm going in for the new chain tensioner in Feb. My 2008 R56 MCS, with 2900 miles on it already has the chatter. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

I had it recently in PA when the temps went into negative numbers. It also happens if you have around a half tank of gas apparently. I was told around this point, the pressure changes enough in the tank that the fuel isn't delivered properly, I'm giong to guess it has something to do with the pump. My check engine light went on. I filled up, drove home and when I turned the car on about 20mins later my light was off so I'm going to assume that was the issue. Haven't had a problem since

 

I just had the chain tensioner replaced Jan '09 in my early production '07 MCS with 23,000 miles by the Portland, OR MINI dealer. No improvement. The only factor that seems to affect my car is that if it sits for an extended timeframe (12-24 hours), it will usually, but not always, start up with the rattle, which always clears up after a minute/mile or two. No unusual noises for the remainder of the day.

I received the following response from a UK-based MINI mechanic on the UK MINI Forum (http://www.miniforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112):

I work for a MINI dealer if your car has had the timing chain tensioner done then I would say you do not have a problem. The N14 cooper S engine rattles at start up after standing due to the nature of the Oil pump. Its first cycle it runs dry and clatters. This is normal.

Odviousley I cannot hear the noise you are describing so i cannot be sure. At our dealer we have a sound clip that BMW has released that we show our customers and 99% of the people who listen to it are happy that the noise are satisfied that there car is perfectly fine.

Assuming the MINI mechanic is legit, this is the first information I've seen that the root source of the noise isn't the chain tensioner, but the design and operational characteristics of the oil pump itself. Anyone else out there have any expertise on French-designed oil pumps?

I forwarded this mechanic's comments to our local MINI dealer. The service rep had no knowledge of the BMW audio file.

 

Three things:

1. So sorry that the new timing chain tensioner (assuming that it's the new spring loaded tensioner) did not resolve the problem. As many of us suspected, BMW either still has no clue as to the root cause of the problem or they actually do know what's causing it and are reluctant to make the information public.

2. I'm not at all confident in the response you received from your UK-based MINI mechanic associate. If what he says is true, then the death rattle would almost certainly manifest itself consistently with a cold engine start-up. In reality, the death rattle usually first appears after some time on the engine, and almost always seems to happen after the engine has been started and turned off before allowed to come up to operating temperature, then allowed to sit idle for several hours.

3. If they are playing an audio clip of the death rattle to new customers to get their "buy-in" prior to purchase, that is shocking and downright scary (and criminal, IMHO). I envision someone's engine crapping out after warranty with the cause of its demise traceable to the death rattle, only to have BMW claim that the customer "accepted" the death rattle and its consequences at purchase because they listened to the clip and knew what they were getting into. Preying on innocents.

The BMW response to this is starting to look like a Chinese fire drill.

 

That is absolutely hilarious. Do you suppose BMW has sound clips of squeaking brakes & other assorted normal noises? Hmmm

 

Could very well, given the advanced technology of pocket recorders and smartphones. They are only .wav files that can be easily databased and indexed. After all, these are Germans.

 

I do not doubt for one minute that these recordings can be easily made.

What I find so darned hilarious is the fact they'd record them & let potential customers listen to them & be told "these are normal sounds???". Simply amazing. If I was shopping for a new MINI & my dealer would say "hey Chuck listen to this new techno band called Peugeot & the valve clankers, the song is titled everything you hear is normal". I'd run my large butt right out of there. That is after a complimentary cup o coffee & a donut.

I wonder if BMW/MINI realizes they are losing potential customers because of this? Hmmm.....

My dealer has not had me listen to the new BMW boy band yet. When I've asked any MA about this issue they get a deer in the headlight look. Then they tell me they have never heard of such a thing. I then refer them to this thread.

Over the past couple of years I've had several R56 loaners. All of them were nice with no valve racket, although they have all been warm weather experiences.

What saddens me about this whole issue is that I can afford to buy a new MINI, not a 30+ K one, but a nice one. I take very good care of my cars & keep them until they are worn out. I can not afford to bail out of a car because it has a known issue the mfg knows about & fails to address. After 50K it is my issue not the Mfg's. Sad, but true.

I know that this hasn't happened to all R56 MINI's, but it does seem to be a lot of them. Heck if it is your MINI 1 case is a lot.

 

I could not agree more. I've been saving every spare nickel for the last few years to get enough to pay cash for a new MINI. In a few more weeks I'll be there, but I simply cannot bring myself to order a new MCS while MINI & BMW continue to be so evasive and/or clueless about this issue. I've been looking into low mileage 06s, even though the low end torque and ride in the R56 are, in my humble and subjective opinion, better. Such a pity...

 

bob, I'm very happy R53 MCS owner. I'm looking down the road a bit as far as a R56 purchase goes. There are a lot of low mileage R53 MINI's out there.

While I do like the power of the R56 MCS I find the handling & vehicle dynamics of the R53 some what superior, but that is a subjective thing. IMO some of that go-kart handling has been lost in the transition from R53 to R56. If you find the ride too harsh on the R53 a change to non-runflats will smooth it out a bit.

Good luck with your tough choice & your search for the right MINI.

 

Thanks! One fine day I'll post here as a new owner, and no longer just a wannabe

 

+2 ... I actually have my eye on a nice, new R57 S but have zero confidence that anything has been done by BMW to mitigate the issue (same powerplant). The fact that I'm still in love with my 1st Gen and don't feel compelled to rush to a new buy decision helps a lot.

I agree with Crash -- I can afford the investment but IMHO the risk of this problem becoming "my issue" is still too high.

 

All those with the MCS "death rattle" start-up problem (like me) should read this link to the Michigan MINI club forum. Aside from being MINI fanatics, they're also automotive and engine designers and engineers by profession. They walk the talk.

It's a lengthly read (13 pages), but they lay out a very convincing evidence and theory-based case for poorly designed hydraulic lash adjusters as the root cause of the "death rattle" - nothing to do with the timing belt tensioner http://www.michiganmini.org/forum/in...p?topic=3115.0

They lay the noise blame on a very poorly designed (cheap) HLA design that quickly bleeds down and depletes it's internal oil reservour after shutdown. After start, the HLA becomes a pneumatic lash adjuster until sump oil is finally pumped into the valve train assembly and the ingested air is slowly bled out of the HLAs. The shutdown position of the camshaft lobes will affect how many HLAs end up depleted, and the subsequent variability of the start-up "rattle".

As Tom, their valve train designer/engineer guru states in their forum, the "rattle" we're hearing is not the HLA, but the valve itself smacking back into the cylinder head due to the "deflated" HLA. He highly recommends we do not exceed 2,000 rpm until the noise stops to avoid valve damage or breakage. His other recommendations are using a 0W30 synthetic oil and non-stop complaining to MINI. The engineers really make the point that the noise is NOT NORMAL, and make sure the dealers hear that loud and clear.

The above is paraphrased from their web site. I'm no expert. "Tom" is the valve train designer/engineer who is leading the charge on this. He owns 2 MINI's - MCS and a new Clubman. It takes awhile to read thru the entire thread, but I learned a lot about engine design, valve train, hydraulic lash adjusters, and camshaft theory and standards. Definitely not light reading, but it made a believer out of me! His description of the symptoms, sounds, and characteristics of the "rattle' exactly matches what I'm hearing on my '07 MCS.

 

I read the post from Michigan, that guy sounds knowledgable and I can't come up with any counter arguments based on my knowledge of aircraft engines.

One notable part of the post is the reference to the use of improper oil as a possible cause of the problem. That is certainly true and I can't help but notice that a popular point of discussion here is about when to do oil changes here and which oil to use, even though the Mini owner's specifies the exact oil to use. I wonder what percentage of cars with the cold start tick had early DIY oil changes using unapproved oils?

 

Well...I will admit that this message thread in particular, MINI's apparent non-response and the fact that my nearest MINI dealer is 2+ hours away led me to buy a new '08 Mazda Miata PRHT at a year-end bargain price.

Yes, I've driven the MINI S and it's a lot of fun....I just didn't have the confidence in the possible purchase nor was I willing to work with a dealer so far away to "take advantage" of the included service. Then I priced out a MINI S Convertible now that that's available on line and while keeping it pretty basic, was at $30k or $6.5k more than my new Miata.

We all make choices...MINI had a chance with me but this issue likely killed my interest. Hope they are listening.

Best of luck to all you MINI owners and I sincerely hope all you suffer is the irritating noise.

 

This explanation seems credible, but there appears to be one more puzzle piece to this mystery. The OP from Michigan MINIs states in the other forum that air can get into the HLAs "when engine oil is thick from cold or from using the wrong engine oil..." This doesn't fully explain the correlation to a short period of engine operation (not letting it get fully warmed up) prior to the inactive time when the engine is cold. Several posters have shown that they can re-create the death rattle if they (1) start the engine and let in run for only a minute or two; and then (2) let it sit overnight. They can do this over a range of ambient air temperatures and parking inclines. If the engine is initially allowed to fully warm up to operating temperature, then allowed to sit overnight, the death rattle does not occur.

So it would appear that if it is indeed the HLAs causing the rattle, turning off the engine before it has the chance to warm up somehow "fools" the system and provides some sort of avenue for air to get into the HLAs as it cools off afterward.

 

Very compelling thread. A must read for sure. It would be a shame if Tom's company were to market a real fix instead of MINI engineer's.

One wonders how quickly broken or dropped valves would occur past 2000 rpm's. MINI seems to be ignoring the noise issue, but I wonder how quickly they would attempt to solve the problem if people started coming in with dropped valves and damaged heads?

 

Actually Tom's theory sounds very solid to me on the subject. Running the car for only a short period of time (say to move it from one parking spot to another) would not fully pressurize the oil pathways in the head while at the same time valve operation would start to deplete the HLA reservours. So the next time you start the car after sitting, the HLA's are more prone to be empty.