i have a theory and it might have been mentioned already. but listening to these noises over and over. it sounds like the valves are being slapped by the cam. if that makes sense, almost as if the valves are being stuck and the tip of the cam is slapping the valve instead of smoothly opening and closing.
the tolerances in the this car are so close that it would make sense that it would have a hard time moving, until the oil frees them up.

 

with effectivly low oil pressure not filling the hydrolic lifters. But why is the pressure so low? How long would it take to push the bubbles (of mysterious origin) out of the system?

Something is very fishy here....

Matt

 

oui, oui!

 

Installing one of these accumulators on a car that chronically exhibits the problem should definitively answer the fundamental question here: Does the clattering noise occur because of oil starvation at start-up? If so, then it's reasonable to conclude that the noise itself is caused by unlubricated metal surfaces impacting one another, and there could be other inaudible wear-and-tear happening elsewhere in the engine. This could have negative implications for the long-term longevity of engines that chronically exhibit this problem. Until BMW can definitively explain what causes this noise, there is no way to put any faith in empty reassurances that this noise "normal" and "not anything to worry about." It could prove useful if someone whose car regularly exhibits this problem were to send an oil sample to one of the many companies that analyze used engine oil. I'd be really interested to learn if cars with this problem show higher-than-normal concentrations of metal particulates in the oil. Such tests a fairly cheap, and if I had a car that chronically showed this problem, I'd have my oil (and filter) analyzed for sure.

 

but two problems with this....

I don't have a car that does this...

I don't even have an R56!

Matt

 

This link describes something more than just air (I think) http://www.michiganmini.org/forum/in...p?topic=3115.0
as I read it to mean empty lifters and some problem refilling them else the normal engine reving (you hear in all those youtube clips) 'should' have raised the pressure enough to refill wouldn't you think?

That's what confuses me - so if that poster is correct and it's an issue of speed to refill a lifter (minutes!? yikes) combined with a too-smart-for-it's-own good oil pump?

Re the accusump or any pre-oiler: the reason the racer gets it is due to the potential for oil starvation on curves and elevations at speeds not normally associated with street driving. From what I read, the preoilers are great but probably outside the cost/benefit return for any healthy engine on the street. The accusump takes up some big space in what was the backseat footwell of the racer plus 2 braided oil lines running into the cab (they radiate some heat too ) that I would be hard pressed to find locations for on a street car. Even the preoiler/small accusump gadget requires plumbing and space...

 

[FONT=Verdana]It seems to me that entrainment of air or frothing of oil is just speculation as to what could be causing a lack of proper oil flow, which itself is speculation about the root cause of the noise problem. Given that most people seem to encounter this problem after the car has been sitting for a while, it’s not clear to me why the oil would be any frothier at that point than it would be after driving around for a while. Maybe even the opposite, but who really knows? Until BMW issues a corrective procedure that demonstrates the ability to reliably eliminate the problem, I don’t think any of us can know with certainty what causes it in the first place. The Michigan thread has some good discussion, but until they demonstrate the ability to fix a number of cars that were chronically bad, I’ll view that discussion as more speculation.[/FONT]

 

Mine did this for the first time this morning. Its MCS i ordered in Feb and took delivery in March. The car was not sitting long. (less than 12 hours) and the overnight temp was hovering around freezing. I am in NJ so the day time temps are in the mid 40's and lower 50's but night still gets a bit cold. I am gonna record it tomorrow if it happens again. The noise only lasted for about 3 or 4 minutes while i drove to work.

Just to clarify i ordered in Feb 07 and took delivery 3/10/07 and i have abot 16,500 miles.

 

I'm sorry to hear from yet another owner having this problem. To encounter this so soon after receiving the car must be really disappointing. I would advise you to register this problem with your dealer so that you'll be eligible for any future corrective measures that BMW institutes. My car comes in later this month. I live in a southern state with a warm climate so I'm forcing myself to stay optimistic unless and until I have a reason not to be. I'll be sure to let everyone know if it happens to me. If I make it through the next winter without running into this problem, I'll let everyone know about that result as well. It's a bit disconcerting that on all of these threads about this problem, we don't read an avalanche of responses from happy owners chiming in to say that their car is clear of the problem. I've read a few, but definitely more from the other side. I realize that a contented owner may not be motivated to participate in these problem-reporting threads in the first place, but it would sure be nice to hear from more people who haven't had the problem.

 

What size resovoir are you using? Looks like they make a 1-quart that dousn't sound like it would be too big (12-inches long, 3-inches around). Not too much bigger than the Amsoil unit with a filter and resivoir attached:

1qt. Accusump
1 qt. Accusump
(#24-046) are designed as a pre oiler for all applications and for surge control on small cubic inch engines, like those used on Mini Sprints, Boats, Motorcycles, etc.

Because it has the same design and features as our larger units, it can be mounted in any position and will deliver positive oil flow.

Its small size requires only minimal space for mounting.

This unit is 12" long 3.25" in diameter without valve or gauge.
With the gauge installed the length increases 2.5"
and the valve installed adds another 3.25".
Both the valve and gauge can be mounted away from the unit if necessary.

 

It looks like that but the car's total oil capacity is about 8 quarts now so (w/o looking at the device right now) that means 3 or 4 quarts; I can't recall the stock oil capacity of a 91 VW Golf which is the basis of the racer. Also the valve is a lever right on the end of the tank so you can reach it from the driver's seat.

Since it's purpose in the car is to prevent oil pressure loss if oil is sloshed away from the oil pump pickup, or other catastrophe on the track, it's a good sized unit. That and some sun-bright red low-pressure warning lights (shutdown the engine NOW ) are supposed to prevent blowing up the costly race engine.

 

Do the stock oil filters have some sort of anti backflow valving? Would help..

 

Yes... as does the head itself. I know because my "no-return oil valve" was replaced with no effect.

 

i too am having this problem with my car. sometimes, it sounds just as bad as the car in the video at the start of this thread (depending on how cold it is and how long it's sat). i'm in nj as well, and it hasn't really been that cold lately, but the noise makes me shudder in the morning when i have to go to work... i have it going in for scheduled service next week. we'll see what they say...

 

maybe we'll see that there's some convergance in the message coming out of Mini....

Matt

 

Ok. Today the temperature in the morning was about 35 and the car made similar noise. I drive hardly 2 minutes to work (I can walk but .. its cold and theres no pedestrian crossing at the freakin light) . In the evening, I started again the temperature was upto 59 , it did make the noise for about a minute or so but then it was gone.

I just think the cold is making the parts and fluid not move freely. I remember Civic used to do something similar. I m forced to think that this is what "normal" would be for the car (unless the noise doesn't go even after 2-3 minutes of running time.)

Edit: BTW, the bleeding service bulletin was performed on mine but that didn't help.

 

Sorry to hear that, Bitharvest. Are you going to Morristown Mini or another? Please let us know whatthey say. Thanks and best of luck.

 

To those who have put 0W-30 or 0W-40 oil in their cars, have any of you had the cold start chatter (again) (for the first time)? Is it a fix or a "MINI urban legend."

BTW Wasn't the name of this original post "Horrible Cold Start Clattering, Rattling," or something like that? I know this is a new thread and all (why is that again?), but "Cold Start Chatter" sounds like what happens at work on Monday morning around the coffee brewer. Kinda benign for what folks seem to be encountering.

 

I have had this problem on occasional cold mornings in relatively warm So. Calif. It's been fairly infrequent, though. Still, I mentioned it while the car was getting its 2nd flywheel, and they put in a new piston for the timing chain yesterday. We'll see if that has anything to do with anything.

 

yep, i'm going to morristown mini. i spoke with them again this morning, and the service advisor told me that their loaner cars will make the same noise- he made it seem like it was normal and there was nothing you could do for it. what was interesting is that in the same breath he told me that they would definitely check into the issue (i used to work for bmw, and we were always told that bmws don't have problems, they have issues!) since they had the car. so at least they are not just brushing it off.
they were also nice enough to let me drop my car off the night before and pick up my loaner early, so the car could sit all night. i'll definitely let everyone know how it turns out.
my fingers are crossed!

 

My car sat unused for a week. Started up with no rattle. It has, thus far, seemed to escape the "issue."

 

Mine has sat for well over a week and started without the sound, and other times it will only sit for a few hours and it will make the noise. The only common denominator with me has been cold weather. If I lived in a location where the temerature rarely dropped to freezing I probably would never have had the issue. Or, I guess I should say: I would never have known that my car has the issue.

 

Valves slapping:
Wouldn't something like that cause the motor to not run properly? When mine makes the noise, the motor runs just fine. It does not miss, backfire, has no appartent loss of power.... it just makes a ton of scary sounding (my motor is going to grind itself to death shortly) kind of noise. I would think a "stuck" valve would make the car miss.....

Oil (lack of):
Would this go away VERY quickly (10 or 20 seconds)? Mine does this for up to 3 or 4 minutes sometimes. It would NOT take 4 minutes to get a little oil sprinkled around up there, frothy or not.


Anywhoozle. My mini was in for service today, to get a light mount fixed, and get the "bleed system" bulliten (which apparently just came out) performed to solve this. We shall see....

 

not sure if you guys had seen the specific bulletin but here it is...

M11 02 07
Engine N14, January 2008
Technical Service
SUBJECT
Rattle Noise from Engine


MODEL
R56 Cooper S with N14 engine

From start of production up to April 11th 2007


SITUATION
Customer complains of a rattle noise from the engine during cold start up. The rattle noise will occur more frequently when driving short distances. The rattle noise will increase with RPM but will dissipate within one to two minutes if left to idle. Increasing the RPM slightly will increase the intensity but will also shorten the duration of the rattle noise.

CAUSE
The chain tensioner and valve train components are not receiving a sufficient amount a air free engine oil.

PROCEDURE
Important notes:

The bleed time may take anywhere between two minutes and (in rare cases) a maximum of 30 minutes. This procedure is to be performed on a level surface with the vehicle stationary, and in a properly ventilated area.

Procedure preconditions:

• Engine oil level correct – neither under filled nor overfilled
• Engine running at operating temperature

1. Bring the engine up to an operating speed (no load) of 2000 – 3000 rpm and maintain this condition for three minutes (bleeding procedure).
2. Let the engine idle for 15 – 30 seconds and reevaluate if the noise is still present or not.
3. Engine quiet – Procedure is finished.
4. Engine noise is still present – Repeat procedure – Steps #1 and #2 up to a maximum of 5 times.
5. Only if the noise remains after performing the bleeding procedure 5 times – proceed by performing the procedure for a final time, also at an engine operating speed of 2000 – 3000 rpm, but for a total time duration of 15 minutes.
6. If the noise is still present proceed to step 7.
7. If vehicle is produced before April 11th 2007 remove the chain tensioner and check the part number. If PN 11 31 7 534 772 is installed replace it with PN 11 31 7 565 868.

Refer to Repair Instruction RA 11 31 090 Installing and removing/replacing chain tensioner piston (N14)

PARTS INFORMATION
Part Number 11 31 7 565 868
Description Chain Tensioner
Quantity 1

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

 

this is saying air is present in part of the engine that takes up to almost 20 min of 2000-3000 no load speed to bleed? During which time there isn't enough time on the tensioner? And if that doesn't do it, check the chain tensioner? Wow.

And we already know that cars that have the proceedure done aren't all fixed.

What a crock.

I'm guessing that the new tensioner piston bleeds out faster, so that whatever put the air in there gets a faster change over.

Joey, thanks for posting that.

Matt