Solo First Time Autocrosser Needs a Little Help!
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3rd Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Frederick, MD
First Time Autocrosser Needs a Little Help!
Hey Guys,
I'm going autocrossing for the first time in a few weeks. I think I know most of what I have to do but for all of you who have done it before - What is the one thing that you wish you knew the first time you went autocrossing?
Also - according to the SCCA the '09 JCW is in C-Stock right (I think that may be a change for 2010)...? Aaaaaand - Can you stick the numbers and class designation onto the side with tape?
Thanks!!!
I'm going autocrossing for the first time in a few weeks. I think I know most of what I have to do but for all of you who have done it before - What is the one thing that you wish you knew the first time you went autocrossing?
Also - according to the SCCA the '09 JCW is in C-Stock right (I think that may be a change for 2010)...? Aaaaaand - Can you stick the numbers and class designation onto the side with tape?
Thanks!!!
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,916
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From: California
"What is the one thing that you wish you knew the first time you went autocrossing?"
How much I was going to spend on it over 15 years.
You need to find the website for the organization putting on the event. If it is an SCCA event you should be able to find your region's website by starting at SCCA.COM.
How much I was going to spend on it over 15 years.
You need to find the website for the organization putting on the event. If it is an SCCA event you should be able to find your region's website by starting at SCCA.COM.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
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in the New England Region, tape is cool - no worries...
but apply this rule...
"would I be able to read the number and the class at a distance of 75 feet with the car going by at 50 mph?"
if so, no problem...
Cone *******,
Charliee
but apply this rule...
"would I be able to read the number and the class at a distance of 75 feet with the car going by at 50 mph?"
if so, no problem...
Cone *******,
Charliee
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3rd Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Frederick, MD
Great stuff guys, thanks! I have the website and I know the event I'm going to start at. I'm also figuring out that I'm starting a long slippery slope towards spending a lot of money!!
Does anyone know a good store to buy a helment from? I'd order one online but I'm worried about getting the right size. I live in the DC metro area.
Does anyone know a good store to buy a helment from? I'd order one online but I'm worried about getting the right size. I live in the DC metro area.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
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check with Autocross International or the WCDR folks -- they will probably have loaners. I hear the AI club has a great novice program too.
Seen this? http://vimeo.com/12067348
Not from DC, so no advice on the right store.
I did just run down at FedEX field this past weekend though, and that is a great place for an autocross. I am accustomed to the dead flat surface of Moore Airfield at Fort Devens in MA, and the FedEX lots are on hills so there is an uphill and down aspect to the courses which is another whole dimension when trying to time the braking and turn in points on course.
Seen this? http://vimeo.com/12067348
Not from DC, so no advice on the right store.
I did just run down at FedEX field this past weekend though, and that is a great place for an autocross. I am accustomed to the dead flat surface of Moore Airfield at Fort Devens in MA, and the FedEX lots are on hills so there is an uphill and down aspect to the courses which is another whole dimension when trying to time the braking and turn in points on course.
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3rd Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Frederick, MD
Cmt, were you driving a BRG cooper with the works package? I was there watching. We chatted to the guy with the all black factory works who was running in the same group as you.
It was watching you guys fly around all morning that made me finally decide I have to have a go. I'll see if I can contact them about getting a loaner helmet for my session so I can try it out. It does look like a TON of fun though so I think I may end up buying one pretty soon!
That parking lot looked tough, especially the Saturday course with the rut and then the water running right through the middle of the first turn, that gave some people trouble! Did you run the whole course in second gear? It didn't look like there would be a chance to shift out of it.
It was watching you guys fly around all morning that made me finally decide I have to have a go. I'll see if I can contact them about getting a loaner helmet for my session so I can try it out. It does look like a TON of fun though so I think I may end up buying one pretty soon!
That parking lot looked tough, especially the Saturday course with the rut and then the water running right through the middle of the first turn, that gave some people trouble! Did you run the whole course in second gear? It didn't look like there would be a chance to shift out of it.
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Central Illinois
Don't worry about downshifting in the slow bits, just focus on being smooth. Perhaps it's just the nature of the places that I autoX around here, but once I'm in 2nd gear, I stay there till the end.
I've seen some guys make it more difficult on themselves by trying to downshift at a slow hairpin or clutching in in a slow area. Make it easier on yourself.
Also, not trying to insult your intelligence, but just remember to puff up your tires. No need to wear the letters off the sidewalls. I know there are lots of threads on here about what pressures people run, to get a starting point.
Also, talk to folks there. Introduce yourself. Let them know you're a novice. I couldn't believe how nice the folks are. My first time, two different guys offered to take me around the course in their cars. One was a supercharged Firebird, the other was a Mazda Sellout (Miata
). They're all there to have a good time and it's amazing how much fun it is, when everyone is having a good time.
I've seen some guys make it more difficult on themselves by trying to downshift at a slow hairpin or clutching in in a slow area. Make it easier on yourself.
Also, not trying to insult your intelligence, but just remember to puff up your tires. No need to wear the letters off the sidewalls. I know there are lots of threads on here about what pressures people run, to get a starting point.
Also, talk to folks there. Introduce yourself. Let them know you're a novice. I couldn't believe how nice the folks are. My first time, two different guys offered to take me around the course in their cars. One was a supercharged Firebird, the other was a Mazda Sellout (Miata
). They're all there to have a good time and it's amazing how much fun it is, when everyone is having a good time.
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3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
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Most important thing to know/remember: Relax and have fun (except when it is your time to report to work...hustle then 
).
I can not imagine an autocross element where a 2nd-to-1st downshift would lead to a better overall time in my stock '06 S much less a JCW car. Let the ES Miata drivers worry about pulling that off.
Start saving for R tires (or suspension and sticky streets if you follow cmt's lead). (see hsautocrosser's comment above)
).I can not imagine an autocross element where a 2nd-to-1st downshift would lead to a better overall time in my stock '06 S much less a JCW car. Let the ES Miata drivers worry about pulling that off.
Start saving for R tires (or suspension and sticky streets if you follow cmt's lead). (see hsautocrosser's comment above)
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,166
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Cmt, were you driving a BRG cooper with the works package? I was there watching. We chatted to the guy with the all black factory works who was running in the same group as you.
It was watching you guys fly around all morning that made me finally decide I have to have a go. I'll see if I can contact them about getting a loaner helmet for my session so I can try it out. It does look like a TON of fun though so I think I may end up buying one pretty soon!
That parking lot looked tough, especially the Saturday course with the rut and then the water running right through the middle of the first turn, that gave some people trouble! Did you run the whole course in second gear? It didn't look like there would be a chance to shift out of it.
It was watching you guys fly around all morning that made me finally decide I have to have a go. I'll see if I can contact them about getting a loaner helmet for my session so I can try it out. It does look like a TON of fun though so I think I may end up buying one pretty soon!
That parking lot looked tough, especially the Saturday course with the rut and then the water running right through the middle of the first turn, that gave some people trouble! Did you run the whole course in second gear? It didn't look like there would be a chance to shift out of it.
JCW's will be in C-Stock for some time to come.
If you have time, and you're not in the first run group, watch the other cars. See where they seem to be having trouble.
In a JCW, start in 1st gear, shift to 2nd, and pretty much stay there. I haven't been on a course yet that needed me to pop in to 3rd.
Take it easy on your first run, use it as a recon lap, and then start attacking a bit with each run. A progression so hopefully your fastest lap will be your last.
We bought our helmets online through Pyrotect, and have open face brain buckets. In a coupe, in the summer in this part of the world, a full face helmet is asking for heat exhaustion. One helmet we got didn't fit right, and it was very easy to ship it back and get the right one. Different brands will fit differently.
If you have time, and you're not in the first run group, watch the other cars. See where they seem to be having trouble.
In a JCW, start in 1st gear, shift to 2nd, and pretty much stay there. I haven't been on a course yet that needed me to pop in to 3rd.
Take it easy on your first run, use it as a recon lap, and then start attacking a bit with each run. A progression so hopefully your fastest lap will be your last.
We bought our helmets online through Pyrotect, and have open face brain buckets. In a coupe, in the summer in this part of the world, a full face helmet is asking for heat exhaustion. One helmet we got didn't fit right, and it was very easy to ship it back and get the right one. Different brands will fit differently.
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3rd Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Frederick, MD
How competitive are they in the C-Stock? I think they were in B- last year where they weren't the best choice. Has moving them down made a big difference or are they still a little behind? I'm scanning through results but I can seem find any listed!!
The more I think about this the more excited I am. I can't wait to give it a try!
The more I think about this the more excited I am. I can't wait to give it a try!
6th Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,486
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From: Orcutt, CA
With the Mini's large side window you can write numbers/class on the window with shoe polish (or similar white marking product). Much quicker to do than tape.
As previously stated, increase the air pressure in your tires.
Slow into the corners and fast out.
I also suggest an open face helmet for Auto-X because you can see better.
I agree with not trying 2nd to 1st downshifts. I seem to have difficulty downshifting the Mini into first, at speed, and usually end up losing time compared to just lugging a little in 2nd gear.
As previously stated, increase the air pressure in your tires.
Slow into the corners and fast out.
I also suggest an open face helmet for Auto-X because you can see better.
I agree with not trying 2nd to 1st downshifts. I seem to have difficulty downshifting the Mini into first, at speed, and usually end up losing time compared to just lugging a little in 2nd gear.
How competitive are they in the C-Stock? I think they were in B- last year where they weren't the best choice. Has moving them down made a big difference or are they still a little behind? I'm scanning through results but I can seem find any listed!!
The more I think about this the more excited I am. I can't wait to give it a try!
The more I think about this the more excited I am. I can't wait to give it a try!
As said above as well: In slow, out fast. In fast, out backwards.
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3rd Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Frederick, MD
Just registered for the Autocross inc. event on 6/13 at Fed-Ex field. Is anyone else going to be there? There are two other MCS's on the entry list.
From what I've read the RX-8 was the class of the field in B-stock. I don't see any registered for the 13th yet though (I don't see anyone else registered in CS!!)
Also, I think the "in slow, out fast, in fast, out backwards" saying needs another level - in slower, out slow. That's where I'll be for a while!! Thank you for all the help guys, if anyone has any other input, I'm all ears!!
From what I've read the RX-8 was the class of the field in B-stock. I don't see any registered for the 13th yet though (I don't see anyone else registered in CS!!)
Also, I think the "in slow, out fast, in fast, out backwards" saying needs another level - in slower, out slow. That's where I'll be for a while!! Thank you for all the help guys, if anyone has any other input, I'm all ears!!
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
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Helpful and/or fun reading that I came across early on in my autocross experience:
More from Andy Hollis
http://www.dmvrscca.org/topten.htm
From Randy Chase (ChaseCam):
http://www.vcmc.ca/forum/showthread....e&daysprune=-1
Techie stuff if you're into that:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/library/...otorsports.pdf
I pulled the above links and quote from a thread on this topic on my local club's (Cumberland Motor Club in Southern Maine) forum.
a good nugget from Andy Hollis:
As a long-time autox participant (24 years) and instructor (16 years), I've seen all kinds of novices and their traits. The reason you are hearing such a diversity of helpful hints is that every driver is different when they come into the sport. Each has his/her own habits and conceptions, so what works to improve one may actually harm another.
That said, one of the first things I try to do when assessing a new student is to make a basic classification. Do they tend to overdrive or underdrive? Overdrivers find the limit by spiking up over it a lot and letting the car's tires burn up that extra energy and turn it into smoke, dust, sound, and heat. These drivers tend to also be jerky in their inputs. Best simple tips for these folks are looking ahead (help smooth out those inputs), braking earlier and less (gives margin for error), and waiting to start unwinding the wheel before adding power.
Underdrivers are typically quite smooth and run consistently under the limits of the car. For them, we usually work first on understanding how to feel the edge (get those tires talking!), how to get on the power sooner and how to brake deeper. Much of this is just verbal coaching since the root cause is inhibition, not lack of understanding.
Hope this helps decipher it all,
--Andy
PS: Novice men typically overdrive, women typically underdrive. Not always, but that's been the majority experience.
As a long-time autox participant (24 years) and instructor (16 years), I've seen all kinds of novices and their traits. The reason you are hearing such a diversity of helpful hints is that every driver is different when they come into the sport. Each has his/her own habits and conceptions, so what works to improve one may actually harm another.
That said, one of the first things I try to do when assessing a new student is to make a basic classification. Do they tend to overdrive or underdrive? Overdrivers find the limit by spiking up over it a lot and letting the car's tires burn up that extra energy and turn it into smoke, dust, sound, and heat. These drivers tend to also be jerky in their inputs. Best simple tips for these folks are looking ahead (help smooth out those inputs), braking earlier and less (gives margin for error), and waiting to start unwinding the wheel before adding power.
Underdrivers are typically quite smooth and run consistently under the limits of the car. For them, we usually work first on understanding how to feel the edge (get those tires talking!), how to get on the power sooner and how to brake deeper. Much of this is just verbal coaching since the root cause is inhibition, not lack of understanding.
Hope this helps decipher it all,
--Andy
PS: Novice men typically overdrive, women typically underdrive. Not always, but that's been the majority experience.
http://www.dmvrscca.org/topten.htm
From Randy Chase (ChaseCam):
http://www.vcmc.ca/forum/showthread....e&daysprune=-1
Techie stuff if you're into that:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/library/...otorsports.pdf
I pulled the above links and quote from a thread on this topic on my local club's (Cumberland Motor Club in Southern Maine) forum.
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3rd Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Frederick, MD
Another question - I have the JCW with the stock alloy wheels on it - do I need to remove the center caps on the wheels? If so, is there a way to do it without removing the wheel itself?
I'm certainly capable but it's a pain in the behind and I'm heading to a different event on Saturday and have to drive a long distance which I'd rather not do with the center caps off the wheels...
I'm certainly capable but it's a pain in the behind and I'm heading to a different event on Saturday and have to drive a long distance which I'd rather not do with the center caps off the wheels...
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
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Another question - I have the JCW with the stock alloy wheels on it - do I need to remove the center caps on the wheels? If so, is there a way to do it without removing the wheel itself?
I'm certainly capable but it's a pain in the behind and I'm heading to a different event on Saturday and have to drive a long distance which I'd rather not do with the center caps off the wheels...
I'm certainly capable but it's a pain in the behind and I'm heading to a different event on Saturday and have to drive a long distance which I'd rather not do with the center caps off the wheels...
Looks like this:
They should pop off quickly and easily. That said, they are pretty secure on the wheel, so tech may not require you to remove them. The other thing to consider removing is the four black plastic covers for the jack points (I don't bother to).
Last edited by SalemMINIDriver; Jun 9, 2010 at 10:28 PM.
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3rd Gear
Joined: May 2010
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From: Frederick, MD
Oh nice, thank you. Mine has the JCW wheels. I took a look at them and I don't think I need to remove them. I have to idea how I would get them off.
It only occured to me after I posted that it may be referring to hub caps over steel wheels or center caps like those, rather than the damn-close-to-impossible-to-remove small center caps on the JCW wheels.
I'm going to take enough tools to remove the wheels if I need to so I can always pop them out but if they sometimes let those stay on then I don't think I'll have a problem.
Thanks so much!!
It only occured to me after I posted that it may be referring to hub caps over steel wheels or center caps like those, rather than the damn-close-to-impossible-to-remove small center caps on the JCW wheels.
I'm going to take enough tools to remove the wheels if I need to so I can always pop them out but if they sometimes let those stay on then I don't think I'll have a problem.
Thanks so much!!
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,166
Likes: 401
Helpful and/or fun reading that I came across early on in my autocross experience:
More from Andy Hollis
http://www.dmvrscca.org/topten.htm
From Randy Chase (ChaseCam):
http://www.vcmc.ca/forum/showthread....e&daysprune=-1
Techie stuff if you're into that:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/library/...otorsports.pdf
I pulled the above links and quote from a thread on this topic on my local club's (Cumberland Motor Club in Southern Maine) forum.
More from Andy Hollis
http://www.dmvrscca.org/topten.htm
From Randy Chase (ChaseCam):
http://www.vcmc.ca/forum/showthread....e&daysprune=-1
Techie stuff if you're into that:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/library/...otorsports.pdf
I pulled the above links and quote from a thread on this topic on my local club's (Cumberland Motor Club in Southern Maine) forum.
Rich
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 384
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From: Central Illinois
Ha, I had neither the first time I went. One of the regulars noticed and taught me the trick where you put your seatbelt on, tighten it and then remove it and twist it around a couple times and re-buckle it. It's the poor man's racing harness, lol.
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
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Slide your seat ~2" back from your driving position (should be close enough to comfortably rest the inside of your wrists on the 12:00 position of the steering wheel...likely closer than what your used to), pull the lap belt tight, take as much slack as possible out of the belt, lock the inertia reel by giving the belt a quick tug, then slide the seat back forward. You can't do this in all cars, but it works well in the MINI. You will see or hear about drivers of these cars putting one or two twists in the belt at the buckle as an alternative.
I haven't used the CG lock, but I understand that only the lap belt is locked (and it's significantly more expensive than free). Maybe very effective if used in combination with one of these: http://www.gforce.com/products/netsanres/4290.php
I'll invest in a harness one of these days.
. Look ahead, farther than you'd ever think. That's the best thing I ever learned to do. Put some ***** mark on your tire walls so you know how much you're chewing up around the corners.
Neutral
Joined: Feb 2009
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AI on 6/13 at FedEx
I will be out there in a red MCS, DS #30. AI is a great group and good place to start. Look me up and we can do a course walk, and you can ride for a couple of runs if DS and CS are not in the same group.
Beside a little extra pressure in the tires, the three most important things are:
1. Look ahead. Took me a while to learn this one, but this is huge. It helps to know which are the important cones, and look for them.
2. Slow in, fast out. If you overcook, you will waste time scrubbing speed or slaughter innocent cones.
3. Backside the slalom cones and turn early in slalom. This is easier to illustrate in person. If you get behind, it may "feel" fast because of all of the drama and tire noise, but won't be.
The good news is that according to the AI and WDCR-SCCA email threads, we are back on the E-F lot, which is much bigger than the one you saw if you were at the NE Divisional weekend before last.
See you Sunday
Steve Mitchell
Beside a little extra pressure in the tires, the three most important things are:
1. Look ahead. Took me a while to learn this one, but this is huge. It helps to know which are the important cones, and look for them.
2. Slow in, fast out. If you overcook, you will waste time scrubbing speed or slaughter innocent cones.
3. Backside the slalom cones and turn early in slalom. This is easier to illustrate in person. If you get behind, it may "feel" fast because of all of the drama and tire noise, but won't be.
The good news is that according to the AI and WDCR-SCCA email threads, we are back on the E-F lot, which is much bigger than the one you saw if you were at the NE Divisional weekend before last.
See you Sunday
Steve Mitchell