http://home.comcast.net/~paxrtp/rtp2015.html

In another forum, Rick Ruth basically said that relative to AM, a class that saw zero change got harder. For those of us in the land of MINI, it became this:

DS 2014 .815
DS 2015 .812 (-.003) A good bit easier

GS 2014 .806
GS 2015 .806 Zero change, so it got harder

HS 2014 .797
HS 2015 .796 (-.001) Barely easier, I'd even say it's more like no change

STF 2014 .801
STF 2015 .801 Zero change, so it got harder

STX 2014 .827
STX 2015 .831 (+.004) Good luck with that!

 

ugh... and compared to how much the other classes dropped, read: AS through FS, anyone competing on index in their region is going to have a much tougher time staying on top. poor stx, they got screwed over

 

The high horsepower cars can't get the power down with street tires like they used to with r-comps. The difference between Super Stock and H Stock has dropped from 8.3% in 2011 to 4.9% in 2015.

 

makes sense for SS. Not so much for CS & ES. street tires were also supposedly going to bring evo/stis back in the game due to the "lack of traction" from the rwd cars, that didn't really happen.. at all.

 

You're right. Looking at the change in index since 2013 with R-comps:

SS 97.2%
AS 97.9%
BS 97.8%
CS 97.6%
DS 98.3%
ES 97.6%
FS 97.6%
GS 98.8%
HS 99.0%

This says HS is just as fast with street tires as it was with R-comps. I understand DS with the WRX benefitting from AWD and GS with the Focus newly dominating, but what's up with HS?

Spot check of HS Nationals PAX attainment:
2014 .756 actual vs. .797. Reno Wasdahl
2013 .775 actual vs. .804. Reno Wasdahl in same run groups
2012 .788 actual vs. .799. Reno Wasdahl
2011 .782 actual vs. .791. Feinberg Milligan

 

well I've brought this up at other forums and this response I've gotten is that our index was accurate/soft to begin with, and that the fiesta st is the new car to have which should have a higher index

 

The anticipated Fiesta ST move doesn't apply as a reason for the 2014 index which was even slightly higher. I'll agree HS was soft in street tire classes in 2011 but it went up 1.6% in 2012 and 2013 before the other class indices dropped 2.4% to 2.8% for the stock conversion to street tires.

 

Not the first time this has happened. Fortunately STX is such a large class we never have to race on index. The only time I use index is for comparisons against local drivers.

 

i mean that's the reason i was given.. i still don't get it.

 

I understood it wasn't your reasoning but the usual best of all possible worlds rationalization one finds on the discussion forums.

HS has been under political fire as irrelevant for some time. It boggles my mind that an entry class for a dwindling population is considered irrelevant but then I know what motivates members to volunteer to serve on the decision making committees. And then there is this bizarre culture of calling anyone who dares question a decision a whiner who wants an "I" class.

Just keep in mind that the rationale given for moving the Fiesta to HS is to promote cars that the participants favor. And that the participants favor cars that are well classed and give contingency money.

 

I think you'd find there are many reasons competitors choose cars and those reasons aren't "classed well" and "give contingency". Just IMHO. Otherwise everyone would be driving ES miatas

 

Yes, of course, people choose the type of car they want to drive, but still choose a well-classed car within that group.

As for what I'd find...
I've been active in Solo for 20 years, know three people who have served on the SEB, and have shared my ride with seven national champions and know a few more rather well. I think I've already found.

The original purpose of the "street" classes was so that people could compete with what they had even if they had common mods on the car. That quickly morphed into mostly old Honda Civics. There appears to be no guidance concerned with the health of the sport. Thought so 20 years ago and still do. We finally got street tires back in the stock category. That's what I call mighty slow progress.

So it goes.

 

I'm older than I thought I just counted 28 surviving national champions that I personally know.

 

I know it'll be a challenge given the lack of Hoo$iers and a live axle, but my soon-to-be-new class (F Street) has a PAX of just .810.

 

The new Fastrack is out, now there's a proposal to move the ABarth 500 to HS. It'd certainly be competition to the Fiesta ST. They're asking for feedback on this. I'm thinking of writing in to say it belongs if the Fiesta ST does, but the Fiesta doesn't.

Also they're going to eliminate the non ST Fiesta's due to roll over risk.

 

hell it seems like even the ST has rollover risk from waht I've seen. good thing we're not on rcomps anymore

 

Yes, I've seen a stock ST getting pretty far up on 3 wheels with Federal tires.

 

Simmons had his pretty far up on two wheels in 40 degree weather on dunlops.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using NAMotoring

 

and that was on asphalt correct? picture it on lincoln's concrete

 

Yeah at Hershey Park. I think it was just another excuse to buy another car

 

yea - it will be interesting to see with max prepped builds how the car handles at lincoln

 

Thought I'd chime in with a couple of points to help put PAX in perspective.

For any 1 event, PAX isn't a particularly useful tool for quite a number of reasons.

PAX is heavily biased towards relatively smooth asphalt lots. R-comp vs street tire time deltas change drastically based on surface type. If you're on a concrete lot that's relatively smooth and not too terribly coarse, R-comp cars will have a large PAX advantage (see PAX results of almost all national events on concrete). Dusty, broken up asphalt? The r-comps cars might as well be on street tires.

PAX is, in part, based on local event results. My experience has been that local events typically have lower speed, tighter courses, with fewer and shorter acceleration zones. This inflates that PAX values for lower hp cars since they will typically do better on index on those types of courses.

Course design can have a significant impact on PAX results. You may have put down a great run, but if you don't have the right car for the course it may not be reflected in the PAX standings.
Driving conditions often change significantly over the course of the day. One local lot typically gets over a second faster by the end of the day due to the course cleaning up and rubbering in. Folks almost always find more time the second day of a prosolo. Why? The course rubbers in and gets faster for many.


Personally, I think some classes suffer/benefit PAX-wise due to how well they are subscribed. My gut says that’s what happened to STX. Lots of STX cars running and doing well on PAX because there are lots of them out there in a good state of prep with good drivers. You see the opposite happen as well. A class gets soft on index due to a lack of deep talent combined with good prep appearing frequently in the results (both local and national levels). This goes back to PAX being based on both local and national results.


Finally, PAX assumes you’ve got the best car for the class. It’s apparent most do not think the R56 MCS is the best car for D-Street (based on national championship entries), and the 2010+ base R56 cars have a wheel width advantage in HS that is particularly helpful with street tires, although 15’s appear to be a good choice.


What does all this mean for HS and DS Mini drivers (or any autocrosser for that matter) in 2015? You now have lots of excuses! Besides that, PAX is best used to compare over a season of events and against cars on similar tires. Trying to put too much stock in to a single event’s PAX results can lead to erroneous conclusions of car or driver performance in either direction. Nothing can really replace head to head competition in terms of a measuring stick, assuming it is a quality driver with good prep that you are competing against. Having a fast co-driver (for a single event or a whole season) is perhaps the best indication.

 

You're definitely right on all points. I think the only reason any of us care is because for a lot of regions, not too much in-class competition, particularly in HS. A lot of us race on index because of that. I know we do down here (STL).

There's also a point of "accuracy." By definition index can't be accurate for everyone everywhere, but it does seem to be particularly "off" when it comes to HS.

 

What is your basis for saying the HS index is "off"?

My experience has been that the HS index can range from "perhaps a bit soft" to "way too hard" depending on the surface and course. Tight, transition heavy, no accel zones, low grip asphalt -> 0.796 might be a bit to low. Higher speed, lots of accel zones, grippy concrete-> 0.796 is obviously not right. See 2014's 0.766 ProSolo Index for HS as evidence of that.

Seems pretty close to right on most decent asphalt lots with courses that aren't extreme one way or the other.

 

prosolo includes a 60' launch, that's why HS index is so low.

RR actually has said for concrete like nats, street classes should get an additional 0.963-0.975 factored in even further because of the grip from the concrete.

i guess we will see how it goes region from region