Which tire would be a better choice for GS street tire class? I'm looking at the Kumho in 225/50YR16 or the Falken in 215/45ZR16. I've just started my first season and don't believe I could put R compounds to good use, plus I'd like to be able to drive them to the track and on the street. I live in CA. so extreme weather is not a factor. Comments or recommendations would be appreciated.

 

I drive daily on the Azenis and don't really have a problem with them. The MX's I've only driven on them once, and that was at a Kumho/MINI event here in Charleston. Nice tire. Can't really say how they do as a daily tire, but they are nice on track/autocross. Same with the Azenis, but the don't like to get as hot as the Kumhos. If you're in a wet area, I'd probably go with the Kumhos, I don't remember them having as many slick areas as the Azenis.


David
-V--V-

 

As David said... the Falkens work best cold and do not like to get hot.... The Kumho MX does not work well at all untill hot then it works quite well..... so your local weather and event size (as in how long between runs) should dictate which tire to use.... and to confuse things Hankook (SP?) will have a "street Tire" out later in the summer that is supposed to be in the Falken/MX league...

 

>>Which tire would be a better choice for GS street tire class? I'm looking at the Kumho in 225/50YR16 or the Falken in 215/45ZR16.

If these two are your only choice I'd go for the Falkens based on size alone. If however you are considering a smaller Kumho then it's worth getting only if you are willing to get them shaved. The Falkens will feel more like an "R" tire because of the stiff sidewalls which I think goes well with our tight handling MINI's but if you run in very hot conditions or in deep standing water at high speeds the Kumho may be a better choice. Many people who are on Kumho's are only on them because they pay contingency $$ at major National events and this should not concern you or because TR sells them and not Falkens.

_________________
2001 & 2002 SCCA, STS, Pro Solo National Champion,

2003 STX, Solo 2 Nationals, Me 8th, codriver 2nd

 

Grassroots Motorsports did a very thorough autocross tire test in the November 2002 issue, volume 19 issue #7, with the BFG T/A KD, Fallen Azenis, Kumho ECSTA 712, Hankook K104, and a side bar test on the Kumho ECSTA MX. They stated:

"Kumhos (MX) might not instantly snare any Street Touring national tiltes from the BFGoodrich or the Falken tires that did so well at our test, but they are a seriously decent tire at avery reasonable price."

Since you are going with the street tire instead of R compound and you won't be the fastest in the class, you might as well go with the cheapest due to the fact in G stock you have no camber adjustment and you will eat the outside of your front tires pretty quick anyway. All the tires other than the Azenis and the KD's were pretty close in performance.

 

>>>>Which tire would be a better choice for GS street tire class? I'm looking at the Kumho in 225/50YR16 or the Falken in 215/45ZR16.
>>
>>If these two are your only choice I'd go for the Falkens based on size alone. If however you are considering a smaller Kumho then it's worth getting only if you are willing to get them shaved. The Falkens will feel more like an "R" tire because of the stiff sidewalls which I think goes well with our tight handling MINI's but if you run in very hot conditions or in deep standing water at high speeds the Kumho may be a better choice. Many people who are on Kumho's are only on them because they pay contingency $$ at major National events and this should not concern you or because TR sells them and not Falkens.
>>
>>_________________
>>2001 & 2002 SCCA, STS, Pro Solo National Champion,
>>
>>2003 STX, Solo 2 Nationals, Me 8th, codriver 2nd

Just to clarify, I'm running GS-Novice for this first season and have been told I have to use a street tire. The average course length is under 60 seconds. Our run group was around 40 at the last event (HS, GS & Street Tire) so there is a bit of time between runs. Being in the S.F Bay Area high temps are not a real problem. I'd be open to suggestions on other brands of tires to give a try.

 

A couple of notes. You must run a 16 or 17" wheel, so the Kumho MX 205's are out. You will be lucky to squeeze the 225/50R16 on the car, especially if you're running stock rims. Not to mention the fact that you're raising the diameter significantly. So I wouldn't bother with the MX's at all.
As for the Azenis', I ran the 215/45R16 as my everyday tire for 21k miles (with two or three autocrosses on them). With a single driver, you shouldn't have to worry about overheating them, especially if you've got the large classes you speak of. Maybe if it's over 90deg., but you can still spray them.
On the STX car last year, with two drivers, it only became a problem when it got above about 85deg. BUT, two driver cars REALLY heat tires.

Richard is correct, the sidewall is incredibly stiff, which is a nice advantage (since you're getting a heavy tire). Because of this and it's stiff carcass, camber is not as much of an issue. Even without camber plates, I've seen autocrossed Coopers on Azenis' (including mine) wear the tire very evenly. You'll run around 35-40psi.
What's interesting about the Azenis is that it can be run at 30psi and turn the same pyrometer numbers as when it's at 40psi. Instead of rolling, the carcass is so stiff that it "shifts" while keeping the tread flat. At least that's MY scientific observation.

My advice, if you must run street tires, get the 215/45R16's Azenis' and don't look back. Otherwise, some shaved Kumho Ecsta V700's in 205/45R16 would be fine.

For reference, keep in mind that I ran the 215/45R16 for 21k miles on my Cooper S with about .5 degrees negative camber in the front, as well as an STX Cooper S shod with 205/50R15's with anywhere from .5 to 2.5 degrees of negative camber.

Brian

 

Brian,

Can you comment on using the Kumho MX tires on 15 inch tires? And how they would compare to the Azenis?

I have a SS+ bare bones Cooper and recently purchased a set of 7-holie Mini wheels for AutoX (125 bux for a set on ebay). Do you think Kumho MX should even be a consideration for me? Both MX and Azenis come in 205/50/15.

My thoughts are on MX are:
- Lighter Weight (2 - 3 lbs is my guess) - really helps the slow Cooper
- Better handling predicability at the limit
- Better wear
- Better temperature range

Azenis:
- Better grip
- Better initial turnin
- Stiff sidewall

With fast lap times being #1 priority, followed by operating temperatures (i would like to do a couple of track events), which tire should I go with?

I am a second year autox-er, so pretty much a beginner.

Thanks!

 

All I can relate is my experience - I've been running the 205/50R15 Azenis for quite some time now and just love them. Even here in Dallas, TX, in the July - September autocrosses they NEVER got greasy. I did run more pressure in the summer than I did in spring and fall to help, though. (38 front, 36 rear for ambient temps above 70, 36/34 for ambient temps below 70). 3rd run was always the best - they did lose a bit of grip on the 4th run.

I don't routinely run in our regional SCCA events, but instead autocross with our BMWCCA chapter - 1.0 to 1.5 mile courses with run times from 90 - 120 seconds. 4 hard runs, pretty much back-to-back. Rest for an hour or so to work corners, and do 4 more hard runs... then fun runs...

I've also done several track days on the Azenis... 36/34 seems to work really well for that, too.

In my experience, the MX's feel too squidgy for me, and I don't think they're any more predictable at the limits than the Azenis. In fact, I think they're less communicative - maybe that's just me. I prefer the crisper turn in, and even with careful management of tire pressures, I always felt like the MX's were rolling over.

I do think the MX's are better on the track, however. If you were only doing track stuff, I'd recommend the MX's...

From my testing, the MX's and Azenis last roughly the same number of events, including track days. I get 9 autocross events and 3-4 track weekends out of a set of Azenis - not too shabby if you ask me...

Both tires are great, IMHO... but I still like Azenis better. I've already pre-ordered my RT-615's and can't wait to check them out...

 

Scobib,

Thanks for the info. I am leaning towards the Azenis, but before I pulled the trigger just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing out on something with the MXs.

Did you run the MXs and Azenis on the stock 5.5 inch wide 7-hole wheels? I am guessing the Azenis' stiff sidewalls would be an advantage here since the sidwalls strength is compromised by putting such a wide tire on a narrow wheel.

By the way, I also run in the BWMCCA autox primarily. I take it you have a MC, not MCS. What cars do you normally run agains in your class? Sometimes I feel like my BMWCCA chapter classified the MC unfairly - running against 330cis on some days, the torque can not be beat with a 115hp engine.

 

No, I was running them on Flik Blast 15x7 wheels... But I would think that the Azenis would be better on the holies than the MX's with their limp sidewalls...

Yup, I drive an MC. Our BMWCCA chapter assigns each car base points - mod points are then added for any modifications you have done. So, for 2004 my car was 24 base points (class B) + 10 mod points (springs, intake, rear swaybar, catback, Azenis) and I was still in class B - but just barely still in Class B. Class B was comprised of older 318's, 325's, and highly modded 2002's. I won my class for 2004.

Now, this season I'll be in C - which is made up of E46 323, 325, 328, E30 M3's, stock Cooper S's, and Z3's (with the 2.3 or 2.5L). Much tougher competition, but I was beating their times most last year, too.

My buddy runs his Cooper S in class D - against modded E30 M3's, E36 M3's, 330's, 325's, etc. And, he took 3rd overall in the 2004 season. My times would have put me about 6th overall last season in Class D.

Like I said, our courses are looooooong by autocross standards - they're more like Porsche Time Trial courses. The shortest course last year was 1.2 miles, longest was 1.5 miles. They are not really MINI-friendly courses, with few really tight sections and some long straights. Every now and then, they'll throw a course out that is more MINI friendly - tighter sections and not so power dominant. Even on an HP course, HP ain't everything!

I've found that making the course as short as possible really works wonders on your times at our events... Carrying as much speed out of the corners as possible is also good...

I'm normally 10 seconds off the pace of TTOD - usually set by the Class G guys, running supercharged/intercooled E36 M3's or one of the non-BMW's (WRX STi usually).

The Azenis should be worth 1-2 seconds, depending on the course... would that make a difference? IMHO, the stock E46 330 handles like a pig for autocrossing - I regularly drive my buddy's 330 during fun runs to help him with some instruction...

 

Thanks for all the info. I have been running on stock 175/65/15 continental crap tires so far. The BMWCCA courses in our area are usually 55-60 seconds long, so by switching to Azenis I hope to pick around 2 seconds compared to the stock tires.

Do you know where the cheapest place to pick up Azenis tires is? I am looking at www.vulcantire.com for $68 bux - is that the best/cheapest source for these tires?

Thanks.

 

In my experience, yes... Vulcan seems to be the cheapest.

 

Vulcan was out of stock when I ordered, so I went with http://www.onlinetires.com/, and actually saved money since they ship from a location much closer to me.

 

Another place with good prices is www.victoriatires.com but they are a little slow shipping.

 

I run 225 mx's on my JCW and they definately love the heat here in Florida, I have 15 k miles on them and they are a little over half treadwear they are noisier now than new but the traction seems to have improoved as they have worn down. They will definately make a good California tire in the heat!