As a long time reader on this forum, I need to vent a pet peeve. It concerns statements like the title of this post, often times regarding Coopers beating Cooper Ss. Let's get real here. With highly skilled drivers, Coopers are slower than Cooper Ss and Cooper Ss are slower than all stock class cars except those in H Stock. How do we know this? Because that's what PAX and the SCCA classification system is all about. For example, on a 60 second run, an S is expected to beat a Cooper by 1.14 seconds (GS PAX is .821, HS is .802) Again, when the cars are driven by highly skilled drivers. The point here is that autocrossing is a competiton between drivers, not cars. I have no doubts that may Cooper drivers have beaten Cooper S drivers, but it was because they are better drivers. And yes, as average as I am in autocrossing, I have beaten a Lotus Elise driven by someone who just plain sucked.

 

What's your point? You're dissing on yourself?

 

Ah, the point. To paraphrase the "It's the economy, Stupid" slogan from the last election- It's the driver, Stupid! And, of course, that a MINI is not faster than an Elise regardless of a race result. No biggy, just wanted to get it off my chest.

 

Ok NSXguy...you got my attention!!

Lets take your example the Elise.

Is it faster in a straight line than a Cooper or CooperS yes. Is it faster through a road course NO!!! I get this all the time, people coming over to my car after a autox or track event wondering what's under the bonnet. Funny thing though the Elise had to let me pass as he was slowing me down in the turns and when the next straight line came around the Elise was nowhere to be found and the driver didn't suck as he was an HPDE instructor turning good lap times (just not good enough). Granted my JAC is modified but it's still a great feeling to have the other drivers come over to see what you're running only to find out it's just a little 100hp Cooper that beat them. The Cooper or Cooper S in the right hands can do some amazing things, not alot of drivers can make the Cooper kick ***, but I like to think I'm one of those drivers. So did I beat the Elise with the Cooper...you bet, by 2 seconds on a 2.2 mile road course, but if you ask him, I beat him, not the car. OK works for me!

 

If you go by PAX, the MCS in GS is faster than HS and DS cars, and just about as fast as ES (i.e faster than all but the top ES cars).

However, I wouldn't judge relative capabilities of cars by the PAX. It considers past experience of drivers in those classes, not the capability of the cars alone. You would have to figure out a way to account for the appeal that certain cars have to autocrossers if you wanted a comparison based on the car alone. The MCS seems to have drawn a pretty talented group of drivers which has lead to a relatively high PAX for GS. If those same drivers were drawn to the MC in HS instead, I bet HS and GS would have a much closer PAX. The two cars require different driving styles, but their capabilities on an autox course aren't as far apart as the PAX seems to indicate. All this would support your statement that it is the driver not the car though, which I would agree with.

 

i owned an Exige S and now currently driving a MCS...there is no comparison...the mini is fun and more practical but no way in heck with the same exact driver can a moderately modded MCS beat even a bone stock exige S at an auto X

dont get me wrong i love both cars

 

You are smoking crack if you think you passed the Elise because your car is superior. I've seen many HPDE "instructors" that are pretty slow. Just because someone knows their way around a track and gains instructor status doesn't mean they're a good driver.

A Cooper S is in no way faster than an Elise stock for stock. The 0-60, 0-100, 0-100-0, braking and handling numbers for the Elise are far better than the Cooper S. I'm also a proficient autocrosser and track driver. On a typical 60 second autocross course the Mini S is about 5-6 seconds slower than the Elise both on street tires.

Trust me, I have both (09 MCS 6spd with LSD and 06 Elise). I've also raced against some seasoned G-stock Mini drivers including at our last local BMWCCA event. I raced against a full prepped G-stock 07 Cooper S 6spd with a national caliber driver on race tires and beat him by about 4 seconds in my Elise on street tires. He was setup with DA Konis, light wheels, V710's with an aftermarket exhaust and I was on my Super Stock setup (just front sway bar) and Dunlop street tires. I put a 7 second gap to a stock R56 on street tires (with a decent driver, usually wins SCCA street tire pax class locally) at the same event as well.

http://www.lscbmwcca.org/autox_resul...07-09)_sum.htm

 

ok.