BTW....thats a picture of me finding there is an ABS issue at Barber!

 

Yes BJ, that was a picture of you at the drag races..... good launch !!!

Look forward to Miller, I am bringing magazines to read as we buzz down the main straight. I don't think you will have that problem.

Mark

 

yeah that when we really unleashed the true power with cooler intake temps!
Ahhhh...Miller MP...there is nothing like it being 100+ out and hearing over the raido......... there are 22 laps remaining in your stint until we pit...around that place.
i really dont like that place.
It the worlds only 4 1/2 mile "parking lot course"...i dont think for legality reason they can use the term road course

 

A quick primer on superchargers and IC's.

A supercharger compresses the intake air to create a denser air mixture . . . thus more oxygen . . . and therefore more power. A by product of this compression is heat . . . lots of it. With a 15% pulley you can expect to see compressor outlet temps over 250 degrees.

The purpose of the intercooler (IC) is to remove that excess heat. Because heat robs the engine of horsepower, the IC is the MOST IMPORTANT modification you can do to a boosted engine. ALL OTHER mods are a waste of time if the IC does not do it's job. The engine reacts to high inlet temps by retarding the timing and adding fuel to cool the mixture.

The R53 top mount IC is the classic case study of how NOT to do an intercooler. . . location . . . airflow . . . heat soak . . . you name the problem and the stock intercooler has it. For this reason, there is an abundance of after market units.

And trust me when I tell you . . . I've tried damn near all of them ! None have worked. Lots of hype but little results. In many cases the stock IC worked better $%@?*!

------------
Up to this point, the best IC we tested was the factory JCW GP unit. Under race conditions it held IC temps to around 160-180 degrees. Barely acceptable, but better than the others. Leave it to the factory engineers to do the best job.

Unfortunately, these are NOT readily available. Even as a racer with lots of 'connections' it is virtually impossible to get one. For those of you who have one . . . treat it like the 'family jewels' because it is probably irreplaceable. Lastly, if you could get one, expect to pay upwards of $750 including the diverter, brackets, bolts, etc.

-------------

At Trois Rivieres the ambient temps were around 80 degrees . . . not to bad and about as cool as we have seen all season. The JCW IC did a respectable job holding the inlet temps to around 160-180 as mentioned above.

We tested another unit there also. It is a top mount water/air unit from the UK. When we got the kit, we were impressed. The fit, finish and quality is as good as I have seen in an aftermarket product.

Unfortunately, as delivered it didn't work so well. There were mounting problems, the hoses, clamps and hardware needed to be upgraded and one of the most important components . . . the pump, was not up to the task.

We corrected these items and headed to the track. Frankly, we were stunned by the results. Under the exact same circumstances as the JCW above (two cars, two IC's on track at the same time) The water/air unit NEVER exceeded 130 degrees. Most of the time the temps were around 100.
I have the data and can substantiate it.

One of our Grand Am competitors said . . . and I quote . . . 'We used to have trouble with you guys in the turns. Now you are passing us in the straightaways. Did Grand Am give you guys another 40 horsepower?'

They did not. I wish they did! The reality is that we have the HP the car has always had. We just now have it all the time.

---------------------

So here is the question . . . This package costs $3000 after re-kitting it, freight, etc. (The dollar is only worth 50 cents to the pound sterling so much of the cost is exchange rate related.)

If I could secure a supply of the components to assemble proper kits, I'm wondering how many would be interested? $3k sounds like a lot of money, but it's the cheapest 40 Hp you will ever buy.

The particulars . . . The unit is top mount in the stock location. The installation is simple but does require a little mechanical skill and an array of hand tools. They are not easy to get. The lead time is at least 6 weeks. I bought 3 . . . one each for the two race cars and an extra set for race spares.

Just a show of hands would suffice. The price will drop if the quantity goes up.

Thanks and sorry for the long read . . .

Randy

 

Thanks for the data.... I Don't have a W2A yet (I"m waiting for someone to offer me one for free for testing), but I think you're running into some things that have more to do with the rest of the system than the W2A itself. What I mean by this is the overall heat behaviour of the system is determined by the capacity of the system (water, that is) and the size of the cooling radiator at the front of the car. The A2As are better at an instant, but they don't have the abillity to really "save up the coldness" the way the water does (sorry to all my past science profs for the totally bastard terms on energy). I think that if you get rid of any extra capacity with the water, you'll find that temps start to rise, and if you add capacity, you might be able to get enough ice water in there to last a whole race session! (actually don't know how long one of your races lasts.... But you get the idea).

Here in the US, there's the Madness system, and the one from Gintani that is perpetually about to go live in volume (but it's availabe, they have it in stock even if they don't market it agressively). Anything special about the TMIC in your W2A kit? (I've seen some where the water flow path wasn't well thought out.)

Anyway, thanks for the real world data from a real racer (instead of a hack like me). I didn't know how a system like this would work out on the track... Good to know the benefits are there!

Matt

ps, if you have an extra one......

 

Randy
Did you use the PACE setup from the UK? I looked into that unit a little over a year ago but the cost is nuts. Are you thinking of making a similar product for sale? I think people would buy it if the cost was more reasonable. The gains you talk of are huge if it works. Keep us updated.

 

Thanks Matt:

More facts . . .

I HAVE a 'Madness' w2a IC. . . I ran it at Mosport. IT DOES NOT WORK. . . Boiled the water out in one lap. It's for sale!!! It may work on the street but not on the track. I paid $1300 for a piece of art that now decorates my Garage floor.

UPDATE: I got a call from Mini Madness about this. They have asked that I return my unit to be tested. I am going to do that. So for the time being, I am going to hold off on any conclusions. I respect these guys for stepping up and looking into this.

I have a Forge a2a IC. IT DOES NOT WORK. In fact it is worse that the stock unit. It's for sale. I paid $750 for another piece of garage floor art.

I have an M7. IT DOES NOT WORK. It is about the same as a stock IC. It looks cool and all indications are that the concept is good. However, again . . . doesn't work. It's for sale. Another $750 addition to my art collection.

I have a Gintani. The jury is still out on this one. I think it will work but there are radiator issues. I have NOT tested it yet. I will after I get the radiator issue sorted. BTW, it is $3500. The stuff that works is expensive.
I need to also add that the Gintani is not legal under Grand Am rules because it replaces the intake manifold. Regardless of how well it works, I can't use it. I'm going to install it on my street GP. The GP's IC is now on one of the race cars!

Once again, the JCW GP IC works well. . . the w2a unit I am talking about above WORKS BETTER.

As you can see, I have put my wallet where my mouth is. I have invested thousands of $$ trying the make my race cars more competitive. If you have followed these threads you will know that the #1 problem with the R53 has been the IC.

I have finally found a fix. Unfortunately, like most good things, it cost lots of money.

I am looking for more users to cut the costs for all.

Randy

PS: The water volume theory you discuss is actually not true. It seems to make logical sense, but the reality is somewhere else.

 

Yes and no on pace.

We are using components from his system because his stuff is REALLY good. The problem is his packaging. We had to change it to get it to work. I don't think he has done any real world testing . . . just like the rest of the IC after market guys. Lots of theoretical stuff and lots of claims. Unfortunately, the stuff doesn't work as claimed.

The same holds true with pace without modification.

And you are right . . . the cost is nuts. But again, it's the exchange rate that runs the price up.

However, $10 is too much if it doesn't work.
$3000 is cheap if it gives you sustainable HP

Randy

 

good info Randy...thanks for sharing. I had an Alta V1 and removed it after a week. The car was noticably sluggish. I bought a used M7 DFIC and decided to sell before even installing it. The GP IC seems to be the best solution....now that the R53 is (almost) retired, it would be nice to get better access to this part (since adding it a GP doesn't make). A proper water/air setup would be nice as well, but pricepoint is key.

 

PGT:

I am really glad to hear from a truthful guy. Most people will buy and install one of these useless products and sing it's praises when they really know it does not work. It's human nature not to admit mistakes.

Kudos to you!
Randy

 

No worries....after buying every conceivable mod, bauble and bolt-on for my Subaru, I vowed to take the no-BS route on the MINI. If it doesn't demonstrably improve the car, it doesn't stay. Worse than spending the money to begin with on a product that doesn't clearly improve things is leaving it on the car instead of using the $$ for something that makes a proper improvement. I never hesistate to pull something off if I'm not digging it (on my third suspension in 12 months my subaru had 5 swaps in 24 months )

 

Randy -

To your question - I'm in for one! Gotta keep up with you on the track!

Rick

 

Rick:

Doug told me you were interested. You are 1st on the list. The Proauto guys will only be seeing your tail lights from now on!

See you soon.

Randy

 

randy: correct me if i'm wrong. what you are proposing is a functioning version of the pace set-up. w/ water pumps that work and fittings/hardware required to actually make use of the engineering. i appreciate the rolling, real world, test-bed of the #197 and #198 cars. i'm glad that you have discovered something that actually works. i run all of my track events in extreme heat, so put me down on the "very interested" list. i need to do a little more homework before dropping $3k on an intercooler (although it looks promising). thanks for your efforts on this front. greg

 

it's nice to see what I have been saying all along.... a properly done W2A will work better even on a track IF done properly....

Good info and stuff some of us already knew through testing others products on cars making real hp

 

your tracks are real, real short! You could just get a big old Alta V1, put it in the freezer and you're set to go.... Us REAL racers (uh, that's a group that doesn't include me) like to turn, and not just to get back to the starting line!

Just busting your *****....

Matt

 

I guess Jan is reading this and has started another project for us track guys. I mean road course guys. I bet the rotrex also helps with heat but I think we lose some low end torgue on road course's in turns. But I'm not sure. Care to chime in Jan.

 

ROFL.... Matt!!!!!

I think you are going to be surprised this yr as we have been developing road racing power almost exclusively. We have been testing a laminova cored W2a for awhile now and the results are as good as the Gintani at half the price. We will be testing different combos on different cars as we have many racing applications finishing up.

We want to run the Rotrex on a stock intercooler for now but it will get the water treatment later. This car has so much potential it's scary.

Just finished up a cam the other day and the testing is being done now on it. Finally something that works across the board on the car that it is applicable to. I have another cam going into an automatic possibly sometime next week.

 

actually the torque is much easier to apply with the rotrex as it is VERY linear throughout the powerband. I dare say in the right hands this car will walk all over a M45 equipped car with the same driver. Below 3k you will have an advantage with the eaton but I doubt very much you spend time below 3k and if you do you probably didn't have it in the right gear anyway.

 

just got one from the guy in Austria off eBay tonight. We'll see how it does but damn, it is pricey

 

I saw one that sold in Aug for $660 . . I thought that was pretty reasonable.

You will like it. I may have one for sale soon. I have it on one of my race cars. I will be changing that car to the W2a system as soon as I get all the parts.

Randy

 

who knows what you'll do with that car over time, so for the limited production models, keep every part! All it takes is some garage space.

I too bought a Peter Krostenberger (username = PeterKöstenberger) GP. I think I paid about $615..... Here's a hint. He's a memeber here, and you can PM him. No eBay fees! I don't know how many he has, or if he has a "source". But the price is well in line with (lower really) than most aftermarket units. If you can't PM him here (don't know how often he posts) send a message to him via eBay with your e-mail or to read your PM here.

If you do get one, get a thermal dispersant coating. It doesn't do much, but it's cheap, and every degree helps!

Matt

 

Good info

 

Dr.O, apparently he dosen't accept PM's, he has no PM link? Will try the E-bay link .

 

Greg:

You are correct. That is exactly what I'm doing. The Pace quality is as good as it gets. However, the packaging has some issues. I'm working with them to acquire the basic parts and then put the kit together properly.

The key is to get enough interest so that they will sell the parts at a reasonable price.

There are 5 interested at this point . . . I need at least 5 more.

Randy