Ok... Fist off this is my first post in any forum.... ever... but i need insight...

Second off... DO NOT POST UNLESS YOU HAVE PHYSICALLY SEEN (not herd from a friend or herd a story) A MOTOR BLOW UP PLEASE!!!!!! and i cannot stress that enough.... i want first hand experience only... and preferable evidence if possible...

Ok so heres the deal.... I'm sort of a speed addict... and I need to know how much i can squeeze out of stock internals before it goes POP (if needed i will upgrade the RODs down the road) and what I need to do as far as supporting modifications...

ABOUT MY MINI
-2008 Mini Cooper S R56 Hardtop - Lazer Blue
-ALTA Intake
-Ebay Intercooler <---- I swear by these
-CNT 2.5" cat-back exhaust <------ only exhaust that was high flowing and still quiet (Well... before i deleted the cats)
-2.25" to 2.5" Cat Delete Downpipe (Custom wielded flanges to bolt to catback)
-Upgraded Diverter Valve Internals (Direct swap from VAG)
-ALTA/Cobb Accessport STAGE 3 Tune

ABOUT ME
I like to think that i am relatively mechanically inclined, and have no problem cutting and wielding and getting dirty in order to make custom flanges, pipes and anything else...

WHAT I WANT TO DO
I have a Garrett GT25 Ball Bearing Turbo that I want to put in (Im bored of the power of stock turbo).

-I plan on Making my own piping in order to adapt this to my intercooler and intake... (both in and out)
-Using a flange specifically made to bolt the GT25 to my stock exhaust manifold
-Buying a t3 (Ford Style) v band adaptor flange to bolt to the exhaust outlet on the GT25 and cutting/wielding my own down pipe...

QUESTIONS!!!
What do i do for a BOV or DV...
How much power can I Squeeze (How many LBS of boost on a GT25) Using Stock Internals

I AM GOING TO STRESS THIS AGAIN!!!!! DO NOT POST UNLESS YOU HAVE 1ST HAND EXPERIENCE OR HAVE SEEN A MOTOR BLOW UP...... NOT YOUR FRIEND's CAR OR "I HERD THIS..." FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE ONLY

I don't need a bunch of know it all people that don't really know it all... witch happens constantly on these forums...

I am open to criticism, and any/all suggestions will be taken into consideration...

DO NOT tell me to upgrade the internals... i will do that in about a year when I'm ready or bored... but for now its too much time/effort/money

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!
Lets build a Monster....


PS.... how was the user name "MINI R56" still available.... i signed up today.... MIND=BLOWN

 

I am sure your ability to Wield greatness into that mini will be something to behold, may you teach me with all your eBay parts getting prowess.
Relax, the Mini is much more about driver ability with less power,, crushing those with more and among the Mini Nation are many cable drivers and builders who would invite you and your Mini to a track near by for a demonstration of a total package, in power and handling with lots of Fun!!!! For a hugely powerful car you are making the Mini something it's not, it's fun to add a bit of wheel HP yet once you get close to 250+whp drivability gets changed as does the requirements from the clutch and other systems... Just cause you may have built a car makes you better than those in the Mini world how?
Please educate me about your engine building greatness and what systems and tuning cents you hold that show any knowledge or ability on your part.

 

The guy on here named "The Pro" claims to see 350 BHP. You could start there because i know he's running the Garret turbo. To put it in perspective, JCW's can see 23+ boost on stock internals and that's only .5 less compression ratio...

All this discussion though of "how much can i boost" and how much power is all relative. It depends how you drive it, how frequently you boost, etc. to know how 'reliable' or how much you can get.

 

This thread will be fun...

First, gotta tell you the standard "do a search on the forum" but I'll play nice.

My motor blew piston #3 at 50k miles, I was running around 21-22 psi on a hybrid K03 turbo (a JCW turbo, so on the smaller end of the hybrids that are possible). I was also the first R56 to be tuned back when software first came out for them, we did nearly 50+ different tunes for it...so needless to say I got a lot of 'first hand' experience playing and learning how the R56 works.

Your question about what can the stock internals handle, is really a difficult one to nail down. Quality on the N14 motor is all over the board, completely stock motors have failed in the same exact fashion that mine did. On the flip side of course, there are many R56's running around with the stock turbo at 18-20psi 215hp/250+trq for a while now that seem to be holding up ok. I do know that good number of the people that have ventured out to run higher boost (20+ psi) or bigger turbos, all pretty much end in the same way mine did....blown pistons. IMO, if you do that on this car, its not a matter of if...just a matter of when.

I'm sorry, I know you said not to, but if you want to do what you are talking about, you should upgrade the internals. "Not now because its too much time/effort/money"....well if you think that now....just wait till you start messing with it and fixing things that you could have done right in the first place.

I will applaud you for your turbo choice though, everyone usually goes right to the GT28RS, and then they realize its a poor choice for our 1.6. The GT25 is much better suited for our car. There are many things to consider with going the Garrett route though. Oldbrokenwind put a GT28 on his and has well documented the process and the headaches. Can be found here: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...2nd-update.pdf. Not sure how much power you are looking for, but my recommendation would be to stick with a K03 housed turbo. You can get some really decent sized wheels in there that should satisfy your power needs, at a far cheaper cost and far far far fewer headaches than going with a Garrett. Not to mention the power curve and driveability will be far superior. Plus, I can assure you that its not as simple as fabbing up everything and bolting the GT25 on.

 

Thank you for the criticism... as i stated in my thread i am open to any and all of it...

first off never said that i was a master wielder or fabricator... I was trying to imply that i don't mind doing a little dirty work in order to get whatever job that needed to be done, done...

second... the ebay cooler for this car that i had installed (not hard to find there are only 2 of them out there on ebay) drastically dropped the charge temps and has completely eliminated my heat soak...
If you have any evidence against this statement (saving $350-$550 on a cooler that isn't necessarily better) please feel free to fire back!!! i won't mind..

i understand your drive to place sarcasm in this thread due to the nature of my interest... however it makes me take you a lot less seriously...

I understand the Great Importance of taking track days in order to make faster track times and hence technically faster car... but that is not the nature of this thread... you are ABSOLUTELY right in the sense that a person with multiple track days in a stock mini would destroy some shitty kid in a 1000hp mini that does not know how to drive... I am not going to argue my driving ability because it doesn't hold any value and it would just be me running my mouth...
I am very aware that this is comparing apples to oranges here... however i am coming off of a sport bike (2010 Ducati 1198) that i track every few months ($200 a track day gets too expensive to do it more often) The point I'm trying to make in stating this is i am relatively educated in experienced in making things go around a track much faster than a First timer... So your preaching to the choir on learning how to drive is beneficial.... HOWEVER... that is not what this thread is about... and please refrain from any related comments...

For the record... I first hand... helped greatly build from the ground up a URS4 to 900hp at the crank... if your going to be persistent please PM me and ill send you pics and dyno charts... I never said i was this great mechanic... but your sarcasm seems to imply that i did... all i said was that I i would like to think that i was relatively mechanical inclined....

PLEASE PM ME IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THIS CONVO AS YOU ARE STRAYING TOO FAR FROM THE INTENT OF THE THREAD!!!!!!

 

thank you very much!!!!!!! I will try to get ahold of "The Pro" to get some more details on his build!!!!

your comment is Appreciated

 

WOW thank you very much... your are the type of person i was looking to lure into this thread and get some information from...
I know that I did not state how much power i wanted... only how much power will the motor hold... I would be happy with 300 at the wheels... witch from what you are saying doesn't seem possible on stock internals...

i have been crusing through a few threads and they seem to claim that the bottom end gives out before the top end does... however you seem to be stating other wise...

I wouldn't be ready to do the build the pistons and rods until, at the soonest, october/november ... so it looks like big turbo may have to go on hold... however my stock turbo is showing signs of wear and its possible that it may give up soon... so as a temporary fix/power upgrade - do you know if there is a place i can send my stock turbo to be build up with hybrid internals????

I will be looking into OldBrokenWind's thread to further educate myself on what is necessary in order to put a garrett turbo into my car...

I greatly appreciate your comment and hope to be talking more with you in the future...

thank you for playing nice with the whole "do a search" however i tried that route and found no one with any concrete information... just a bunch of know it alls and bashers.... kinda like BoostMe... However I was quick to give up rather than to dig deeper into the threads... (witch was my own fault i know)

if you don't mind my asking... please PM me your build/mod list... so i can get an idea of how it should be done correctly...

 

Pistons are part of the bottom end....lol

For 300whp you are looking at $10-15k minimum...

As far as rebuilding turbos look at:

www.blouchturbo.com
www.gpopshop.com

And I don't have the R56 anymore, got tired of messing with it. After I got the motor replaced, I kept it for about 10k miles then decided it was a good time to get rid of it while it was still in one piece. Back to the R53 world and haven't looked back But PM if you have questions...there are also a couple other guys on here who REALLY know their stuff too that I can point you to. I can tell you "ThePro" isn't one of them....

 

It seems that 21-22 PSI is the max, or possibly even exceeding the max, of what would be considered safe for a R56 engine that has stock pistons and rods. The stock turbo (at least the JCW turbo) is capable of that kind of boost with an ECU tune.

That being said and assuming that higher boost isn't part of the end goal, is there still a benefit to moving to a GT25 or even the smaller K03 to K04 hybrid turbo?

 

Ya know, sure I was a bit sarcastic, yet when you ask for someone who has 1st hand experience or has seen a motor blow up, well now that's worth it, it's just Funny!!!
It's easy to be a bench builder, I'm sure you know this, getting your hands dirty is part of learning and the building process.

Ok about your FMIC, have you ran air temps before and after to see how much improved the temps are and what is your ambient temp when testing, just not a source I've considered for parts, yet you may be onto something that could save people money as long as it lasts and is durable. What kinds of temps have you used and found noticeable improvement from heat soak?

I do understand coming from hugely fast motorcycles and wanting your car to be fast too, just having owned several bikes myself over the last couple decades...

The Mini is a very fun and capable car as is and with a bit more power is down right crazy fun!

Also look into water/methanol injection Howerton Engineering has the HSF-3 & 4 systems which are used by many in warmer climates and those looking for maximum boost and timing advance while keeping detonation under control..

 

Pay to play, find out.


21psi for 45k no problems other than the internals on the stock turbo, and the manifold cracked. Too many variables in your request to give a solid answer. Driving skill, maintenance, altitude, ambient temp, etc etc.

If you did the vag swap, you are loosing pressure, you wont know as the turbo will spool until boost is achieved via electronic wastegate control. Did some testing quite some time ago, posted my findings in one of Czar's threads.


fyi:

mini wastegates work in reverse fashion by vacuum control as well, not boost pressure.

The "S" model will only see 21 psi, anything over and the ecu cannot translate the signal from the pressure sensors.

Forged pistons from the factory

Tuning will be your biggest barrier as well as boost control.

 

Stock pistons and rods are good for 280-300ish at the crank.Watch your egt and spay some meth if modding with stock internals.

 

Haven't blown it up yet, but I don't drive it often or hard either.

Posted my GT28RS install issues on another thread, currently the last post (#124?) --- https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...started-5.html --- suggest looking at it BEFORE you change the turbo. I'd expect similar issues with a different Garrett.

As mentioned earlier, one of your biggest problems will be tuning. Once you get into a "custom" tune, you're locked into that specific tuner. Most tuners "lock" their maps so they can't be copied or modified.

My tune can be viewed on www.accessecu.com/dyno or the dyno section of Cobb Performance web site. Under 300WHP but still running stock bottom end parts. Currently working on getting a tune for my latest upgrade, Aquamist HFS4. Might be "the straw that broke the camels back!"

 

I heard as much as it takes to blow them up.

 

I know this thread is old but i have the same doubt. For a tune like this: TD04-19T turbo, FMIC, and water/meth, 2,5'' full exhaust. It would easily pass 280hp. Can stock internals handle this power or is it too risky?
Thank you!

 

A quick update for those still interested ---

Just added a pair of Fuel Cut Defenders, so my GT28RS can produce the boost it was designed for. Got a "remote tune" for my AP that seems to be working pretty good. Gotta wait for another dyno tune. The FCD's are set to about 19psi (at the ECU) and the boost controller is set to about 25psi (at the external boost gauge). This is an MCS, not a JCW! My posted dyno chart is running 14 - 17psi & 276WHP. Another one, immediately after, was 17 - 20psi and 282WHP (not posted). This is BEFORE I added WMI at a 50 - 50 mix, and the FCD's for 25psi, and a remote tune with more "aggressive" timing. I'm probably still under 300WHP, but not by much.

Espasa, you might get close to 280BHP with the upgrades described above, but I believe you'll need a bit more to get 280WHP. And, it will be risky!

Gotta admit that I seldom get on it to build the extra boost, so, as stated above by others, driving habits are a BIG factor on how long the engine bottom end will survive.

 

oldbroken thank you very much for answering!! really!! This is a project i want to start slowly. Actually i have a Citroen DS3, it has the 1.6 THP but with a smaller turbo than the MCS, 150hp. I'm from Argentina
The number of horsepower really doesn't matter to me. I just want some good and safe power.
Do you say that with the td04-19t, a fmic, and a wmi, it could be "safe" not to break pistons or connectin rods?
Concerning my driving habits, i like to go to drag races. Not every week but twice a month yes.

 

First of all, be aware that I'm still learning about the MCS engine & drive train. And, I know nothing about a TD04-19T. All I'm doing here is telling what I've done and how I use it. Drag strip racing will put all kinds of stress on the rods / pistons / etc. Mine is built for street use --- a "sleeper", altho, I hope to test it at the local drag strip AFTER I get another dyno tune. Almost everyone will agree that the MCS is NOT designed for the drags --- some call it "a brick on wheels". It's best on cornering and curves, where driving ability counts as much as engine performance.

From what I've read, a WMI system is great prevention from piston damage - helps to keep the carbon build-up at a minimum. I suggest a good Oil Catch Can also, connected so both vent hoses are "dealt with" (I blocked the rear hose). Between an OCC and a WMI system, the engine should last longer. There seems to be a relationship between boost and engine failure, but there's so many variables, it's really just one big crap-shoot / gamble. So far, I've been lucky! I don't believe anyone is ever "safe" from blowing an engine, once they start the mod process.

Take the upgrade process slow, use good workmanship if you do the work yourself, and learn from others mistakes. Most of all, enjoy yourself!

 

Thanks again. I'll take everything you tell me in count. Best for your project. Greetings!

 

I believe I have a blown motor. 2007 mini s 85k mile with alta turn stage 1. It was running great and I was getting 21psi boost. Now engine still runs bad no turbo not working. There is blow by smoke, coming out of the oil cap and dip stick. There is a noise coming from the top right of the engine. What could it be? Whats my next step. If I do put a new motor in. Are a non-turbo and a turbo engine the same?
Thanks Steve
ps this car has hurt be bad, rebuilt turbo, clutch flywheel now this.
Please Help looking for guidance.

 

Guidance? Return it to stock baseline configuration, and don't try to see how much power you can get on stock internals...

I know it's not what you want to hear.

Your other alternative is to spend the big bucks on stronger internals so they hold up under more boost...

 

Gotta agree with Slave --- running high boost on stock internals is risky, as you discovered.

Blow by smoke, strange noises, turbo not working, boost set for maximum --- all indications of a blown engine, as you suggested. Try a compression test before doing a teardown. Or, maybe find a borescope to do a visual exam on the cylinder chambers. That may help you decide what to do next.

Most of your upgrades should be salvageable, if you decide to rebuild. I can't help with the engine differences --- I'm still learning about the turbo version. Maybe a visit to the RealOEM website would help. A copy of the Bentley manual would be a great asset.

 

Please blow yours up and let us know what horsepower level you were at when it happened. Then we'll have an archive of the correct answer for this question that seems to come up about once a month.

 

Tick...tick...tick...BOOM

Anybody know the stock wheel horse power on the n18s? Around160-170?

 

It's about 170-172. And torque around 180-184.